§ 2.33 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what advantages they hope to see accruing to Britain from the £15 million allocation of funds to Mozambique.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government's assistance to Mozambique will be designed to further her economic development. Like our development aid to the rest of the Third World it is also in the long-term interest of this country. It will now also take account of Mozambique's decision to implement sanctions against Rhodesia. This decision was taken in line with the United Nations Resolutions which have been implemented by both Labour and Conservative Governments.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm that that Answer is really a roundabout way of saying, None?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, it was neither roundabout nor negative.
§ Lord MOLSONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether there is any provision that this loan should be spent upon goods purchased from this country?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, my Lords; we hope that some of it will be spent on goods and services from this country, some towards rural development and some of course for technical assistance, as always.
§ Lord MOLSONMy Lords, no doubt the Minister hopes that. Is there any provision in the terms of the loan requiring that to happen?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, we hope that a group of officials will go out to Maputo very soon, and all the terms will be discussed then.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she could state the amount which has been either given to Mozambique or promised to Mozambique for development and for its co-operation with sanctions?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, my Lords; an immediate loan of £5 million at the moment, and, ultimately in all, a total of £15 million will be made available. We are preparing to make it available out of the British aid programme to cover a period of years as and when disbursement works out as practical.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, apart from any enforcing policy of all British Governments of sanctions against the illegal régime in Rhodesia, does not this aid demonstrate in a practical way that Britain is prepared to help those who are prepared to work towards the elimination of racism throughout the whole of Southern Africa?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, my Lords.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm that the £5 million loan to which she has referred will also be in accordance with the question asked by my noble friend Lord Molson? 1068 Would this also be under consideration as procurement aid? In view of the statement that the noble Baroness made that these officials will be going to Maputo, will that affect the £5 million loan as well?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, my Lords.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, could the noble Baroness tell the House whether the £15 million aid was indicated to Mozambique before they broke off relations?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the whole matter is under discussion. Of course, discussions took place before they became a Government; but the sums to be spent, and when and how they are to be spent, will be considered by the official Working Group which we hope will be there soon.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, may I revert to the reply with regard to the benefit to this country. Does it not seem incongruous using public funds to assist terrorism, generate murder, mutilation, and intimidation, and when the country that receives it is a Marxist country? As the noble Baroness w ill probably know, this country has recently abolished all private education and substituted Marxist slogans and gestures. I ask this question particularly since the country in question is, by its own policies, diminishing its foreign exchange receipts which, in the main, can come only from three sources; tourism, railway revenue, and the migrants' earnings, which it is understood under a long treaty have to be repaid up to 60 per cent. in gold.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the House knows the noble Lord's passionate interest in these matters, and I think will excuse him for making a rather long speech instead of asking a question. I should like to make it absolutely clear, as the Prime Minister did in another place, that there is no question of British development assistance being used for purposes of terrorism or military intervention of any kind. That must be made as absolutely clear here as it has been to the Government of Mozambique. I do not think the House will want me to go into too much detail about the Marxist education, and matters of that kind, but if he would like me to, 1069 I shall be very glad to talk afterwards to the noble Lord.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is there not a serious question to be considered here? While I recognise what the noble Baroness has said about the destination of the funds, if a nation is, as a matter of policy, systematically harbouring and allowing itself to be used as a base for the instruction and launching of terrorism against a neighbouring territory, and if, as I suppose, Her Majesty's Government condemn that as a method of obtaining that nation's ends, is there not a serious question of compromising ourselves, of involving ourselves in that policy by providing funds?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I do not think that the noble and learned Lord would wish in any way to flaunt the Resolutions of the United Nations, and the United Nations has called on all Member States to assist Mozambique when she implements sanctions against Rhodesia. That is the position. Her Majesty's Government are bound by that and by our commitments to the Kingston Commonwealth Conference of Heads of Government. I entirely understand the intellectual and, indeed, moral difficulty in which the noble and learned Lord finds himself. We understand the difficulties, we have thought the matter out very carefully and I assure him that we are doing everything in our power to make sure that we implement the United Nations Resolutions, and that is all.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether the United Kingdom representative at the United Nations made any statement or expressed any reservation as to the position in Mozambique in view of my noble and learned friend's question?—because this would seem relevant. After all, the United Nation's Resolutions are passed by all Member States and the United Kingdom is a Member State. May I further ask the noble Baroness whether, when the Commonwealth Association met last year, the £15 million was promised at that stage to Mozambique provided they applied sanctions?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, in answer to the 1070 second part of that supplementary question, certainly not; no conditions at all were made. In answer to the first part of the question, I regret that I cannot say exactly what was expressed by our representatives at the United Nations. I can, however, say that my right honourable friend the Minister of State for the Foreign Office has spoken in exactly these terms to Senhor Chissano and that our own Ambassador in Maputo has made representations of this kind.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, I hope that I heard the noble Baroness wrongly. I thought she said that we were bound by Resolutions of the United Nations. If so, we have certainly undertaken some very astonishing obligations.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the noble Lord is himself very astonishing.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, can the noble Baroness give an assurance that not one penny will he advanced to Mozambique until such time as the innocent railwaymen and other civilians, both black and white, who have been detained without valid reason by the Mozambique authorities are released and allowed to return to their homes?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the House will know and will have been delighted to see that a British lady and her child have already been returned to Rhodesia. This was due partly, I am sure, to the representations which our Ambassador in Maputo has made. He has also made representations about the other people to whom the noble Lord referred.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, without entering into these controversial questions, may I ask the noble Baroness what is the ultimate source of this advance to Mozambique? Will it be from our borrowings from the International Monetary Fund?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think the noble Lord will know the answer to that question much better than I shall.