§ 2.43 p.m.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether British copyright now provides protection against publication within the EEC.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, Community jurisprudence under the Treaty of Rome must be taken into account in determining the extent to which the traditional protection of copyright works offered by British copyright law can be used to prevent imports from other EEC countries. There has already been one case before the European Court of Justice in connection with gramophone records which has implications for copyright generally. But a fuller picture of the relationship between national law and the Treaty of Rome can be established only by successive interpretations of the Treaty by the European Court of Justice.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, am I to understand from the noble Lord that the position is far from clear, that publications in this country may or may not infringe copyright, and that no one is at present in a position to say how the matter stands?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Earl is completely right. The matter is not yet clear but we hope that it will be clarified by the European Court of Justice as a result of successive interpretations. This may seem unsatisfactory to the noble Earl, but we are in a period of transition and this is one of the problems of transition.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, cannot the Government say the kind of policy for which they are working?—because this is a very important matter.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I did not say that it was an unimportant matter. The situation is that the United Kingdom Government are always prepared to intervene at the Court of Justice in order to protect the interests of the United Kingdom when situations such as the noble Earl has indicated arise. Intervention 1072 has already taken place in four cases relating to copyright, following consultations with organisations representing the interests affected, and it will do so again whenever necessary.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, as a number of us in all quarters of the House will be interested in this subject, and while of course recognising the difficulty of making pronouncements of law before the decisions of the Court are arrived at, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government are making a study with a view to identifying the problems which are likely to arise and the solutions which they are anxious to propose? Would the noble Lord be good enough to write, perhaps to me, telling me the extent to which the problems have been identified, what they are and what the outcome is thought to be likely to be?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that helpful intervention. As I said to the noble Earl, the position is unclear. The European Court of Justice seems to be creating a set of case law in this matter and, with the permission of the House, I will write to the noble and learned Lord telling him exactly where the matter stands. This is a legal matter which is rather beyond my competence.
§ Lord MOLSONMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the clarification of the law on this very important matter will depend on a number of individual test cases being taken or—and perhaps I should know the answer to this question—is there any provision under the Treaty of Rome by which an opinion can be obtained from the Court in order to clarify important branches of the law which are not clear?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, with the permission of the House, I will include an answer to that supplementary from the noble Lord in my answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us who are interested in copyright and patent law see a difficulty between the European Convention for Patents and the Common Market Convention for Patients? Is he 1073 aware that the Command Paper which was produced in 1964 allowed, under the European Convention for Patents, a national to try his case in his own country while, under the jurisprudence of the Common Market, Munich is the place where the small patenter or maybe the copyrighter must go to prove his case? This must mean terrific expense for a non-German-speaking small man who has produced a patent, and it is clear that this subject needs looking into on this side of the Channel.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend has touched on one of the problems, although of course he is talking about patents and not about copyright. Nevertheless, this is a very interesting problem arising in the transition from the present situation to full membership.
§ Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCHMy Lords, will my noble friend circulate the reply which he intends to send to the noble and learned Lord, as many other people are interested in this problem?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, think it would be helpful if I gave my reply to the noble and learned Lord in the form of a Written Answer.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, if the noble Lord will be good enough to let me know when he is ready with his Written Answer, I will put down a Written Question.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to explain what is meant by Her Majesty's Government "intervening" in these cases; in what capacity do they intervene in the European Court proceedings? Is it as a party, as an expert witness—or as what?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMTo protect the interests of the British people, my Lords.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend care Ito help noble Lords who have asked this and similar Questions? Might it be helpful to issue a White Paper indicating how many such matters there are associated with our accession to the Treaty? Would he consult his right honourable friends about this, as so many questions have been asked and as so many items are unclear?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend is taking the argument a little wider than I am authorised to comment on. The matter is interesting, but I am speaking purely about copyright.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that I am only trying to help? I am doing this only because of the many questions which have been asked about it recently which indicate that many points are not clear. It might have been useful if we had decided to clear up some of these matters before signing the Treaty of Accession, but it is not too late even now.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, can the noble Lord at least say that anything printed outside the Common Market is protected by copyright in this country? Is there copyright protection in this country against anything that is printed outside the European Common Market?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give that undertaking. One case is of material copyright in this country printed in the United States and then brought back into this country. However, it is a very complicated subject and one which requires clarification ultimately by the European Court of Justice.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, quite apart from the European situation which I have asked about, is the situation not really governed by international conventions and do not these cover the situation as regards adherents to them, which number at last, I believe, includes the United States?