§ 2.42 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now make a Statement on the proposed new rifle and ammunition for the Army.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords. As the Government announced in the Statement on the Defence Estimates, a new family of small arms and ammunition to replace the 7.62 mm self-loading rifle, the 9mm sub-machine gun and the 7.62 mm general purpose machine gun in the light role have been developed to enable Britain to compete in NATO trials for the selection of small arms ammunition on which NATO forces may standardise. The calibre of the ammunition we have developed is 4.85 mm, and the weapons comprise a self-loading rifle with an automatic fire capability and a machine gun. The weapons and their ammunition are considerably lighter than the present small arms; this will lighten the soldier's load and reduce logistic requirements without sacrificing firepower. We are confident that they will set a very high standard in the NATO tests which their competitors will find difficult to beat.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I did not gather from my noble friend's reply that 664 there had been consultation with our allies in NATO: can he answer that question? Also, if there have been consultations, what was the result? May I ask whether he is aware that in 1951 we produced what was regarded as the most efficient rifle to date and one which took consistent ammunition, but that the Americans and the Belgians rejected our request that this should become a standardised weapon for NATO at that time? How are we to take care that a similar difficulty does not arise on this occasion?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the plan is to standardise on whatever round or rounds are selected by the Conference of National Arms Directors. If our concept of a rifle and a light machine gun firing a 4-85 mm round is proved the best in the tests which are to take place in the United Kingdom and Germany from 1977 to 1979, then we are confident that that will prove that our two weapons are perhaps the most suitable for the NATO forces as a whole. However, if the Conference of National Arms Directors decides on a larger calibre—for instance, that which is standard in the French, American and other forces, 5.56 mm, which is just under three-quarters of a millimetre larger than this one—our designs can be converted to the larger calibre, thus avoiding the unhappy situation which arose over the EM2 rifle, produced in the days of my noble friend's responsibility for such matter, and which made it impossible for the EM2 to be adapted to the larger 7.62 mm calibre which was ultimately decided upon.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, these particulars are very interesting, but I still await the reply that I am anxious to obtain from my noble friend about the consultations. It is all very well to produce something, but if we merely produce it and leave it at that, it is not really of very much value.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I thought that I had answered that point. The point is that there is a group—the Conference of National Arms Directors—which is now in consultation on this basic round. The weapons that will be produced for the 1980s will be based on a standard element of ammunition; that is, a standard round. Our rifle will be able to take either the calibre that we 665 think the best or the 5.56 mm which may be thought the better.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that that is standardising the ammunition, whereas it may be that there is something to be said for standardising the rifle?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I believe that if we can agree on a standard piece of ammunition, logistics will be made much easier thereby.
§ Lord SWANSEAIs the noble Lord aware that the 4.85 mm cartridge has a very much shorter effective range than the present 7.62 mm cartridge used in the NATO countries? If a cartridge of that calibre is adopted, will not the present 7.62 mm cartridge still have to be retained for machine guns in a support role?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord is entirely correct. The 7.62 mm cartridge will be retained for armoured vehicles. This is for the infantry weapon.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend in a position to satisfy my interest as to who this Conference of Directors is responsible to? To whom shall they report? Is it to be their respective Governments?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, at the end of the day, it will clearly be to their respective Governments.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord has quite understood my question. I am of course quite aware that unless one has the same ammunition one cannot standardise the rifle. But would it not be a good thing to standardise the rifle?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, let us hope that the tests from 1977 to 1979 in the United Kingdom and Germany will prove that the British weapon is the best. However, as long as the round is standard, we have overcome the major hurdle in harmonising our logistic problems.
§ Lord THOMASMy Lords, will the noble Lord confirm or deny that this is another big step forward in metrication ?
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, in order to underline the need for standardisation, would the noble Lord give us the number of different calibres of ammunition currently used by the NATO forces? Is it not true to say that, despite the desire of independent countries to standardise, the numbers are rather greater now than they were 20 years ago?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is a highly technical question, but I think that the calibres are 9 mm, 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm. We are hoping to get the number down to two.