§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have seen the statements attributed to Professor Patricia Scott of the Royal Free Hospital Medical School and others published in the Observer colour supplement of 13th June, relating to the nature of Home Office inspections and the granting of licences under the Cruelty to Animals Act 1896, and whether they will make a Statement.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my right honourable friend is glad to have the opportunity to repudiate the inferences in the statements referring to Home Office inspections and the grant of licences. They are not attributed to Professor Scott, but to an unnamed animal technician, and I understand that Professor Scott has already informed my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby that she disclaims them.
§ Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that he is correct in saying that I have received a letter from Professor Patricia Scott, disclaiming any responsibility for the comments mentioned in the article of criticism of the administration of the 667 Act? May I further ask my noble friend whether he thinks that it is satisfactory to rely for information about what is going on in the field of animal experiments, upon disclosures in articles of this kind ? Is my noble friend aware that the Parliamentary Animal Welfare Group, which comprises Members of all Parties in both Houses, submitted a memorandum to the Home Secretary six weeks ago, asking for an interview to discuss the whole question of the functions, initiatives and powers of the Advisory Committee ? Will he kindly ask his right honourable friend to apply his mind to this problem and so spare us the problem of disclosures which have to be disclaimed and repudiated in this way?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I will do what the noble Lord asks me to do.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, is it not a fact that, although the statements may be repudiated by the professor who has been named, the really important matter is whether most of the statements in that article are true? Would Her Majesty's Government agree with me that, allowing for a certain exaggeration which is liable to take place in a newspaper article, the great majority of these statements, including the ones attributed to me, are true?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, if the noble Lord is referring to inspection and issue of licences, I should say that the description of an inspection given in the Observerarticle is a travesty of fact. The inspectorate regularly visit places registered under the Act for the performance of experiments. In 1974—the last year for which figures are available—there were 601 such places, to which 4,284 visits of inspection were made, mostly without notice. In addition, 207 visits were made to other places in connection with the administration of the Act. So far as licences are concerned, they are not issued merely to anybody. An application for a licence must be supported by a recommendation from the president of one of a number of learned societies named in the Act and by a professor in a medical or veterinary discipline.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that I have been nearly all those things, including a 668 member of the advisory committee to the Home Office? As I have said before, allowing for a certain amount of newspaper exaggeration, a great many of those statements are entirely true. Are Her Majesty's Government further aware that when I have been called upon to countersign certificates and have refused one it has been immediately passed to another professor who has passed it, and that when as president of a college I was asked to countersign certificates and refused one it was immediately passed to the president of another college and dealt with?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can only repeat that since the appearance of this article very careful consideration has been given to the content, and my information is that the article relating to inspection reveals a travesty of facts. I do not think that I can go beyond that.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, can my noble friend say why, even though we are halfway through 1976, the appropriate figures for 1975 are not yet available?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I wonder how many statistics for 1975 in any field are in fact available at present. It takes considerably more than just five or six months to get statistics relating to the previous year. It is not uncommon for statistics to be 18 months in arrear. I have the total number of experiments for up to not quite the end of 1975; the figure is 5,379,084. As I say, that was the figure of the total number of experiments up until not quite the end of 1975, but the final figures for that year will be available within the next few months.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is my noble friend saying that the whole business is now efficiently computerised?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLI would not know that, my Lords, but I am quite certain that there is a great deal of efficiency to be found when it comes to compiling statistics. One just cannot, in the middle of one year, expect to have statistics of certain types up to the end of the preceding year.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is it not the case that during the currency of the last 669 Conservative Government but about two, a committee was set up to deal with this subject? is it not also the case that its full recommendations have not been carried out by the last two Labour Governments or the last two Conservative Governments? Will the noble Lord now consider whether this wonderful, efficient Administration under which we all suffer will at last bring those recommendations into effect?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am sure that if there have been four Administrations who have decided to do nothing about this matter there must be a very good reason behind it. I shall certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the remarks of the noble and learned Lord.
§ Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBYMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me where on earth he gets the idea that if Governments do not do anything there is a good reason for it?