HL Deb 24 June 1976 vol 372 cc430-2

3.12 p.m.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what improvements have been made in tanks provided for the Army and how they compare with previous types and those available for the countries associated with the Warsaw Pact.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, Chieftain represented an all-round improvement in mobility, firepower and protection over its predecessor, Centurion, which it replaced in British Army service between 1967 and 1973. Many features of Chieftain are superior to those of the T62, which the Warsaw Pact introduced in the early sixties. The improvements we plan to make to Chieftain should maintain its superiority into the 1980s. The Warsaw Pact, however, are putting much effort into improving the quality of their tanks and are now introducing a new tank, the T72. As regards the progress of Chieftain improvements, the first stage, which is the laser sight, is already in production and issues to units are proceeding well. Trials of the improved fire control system, which, together with the muzzle reference system, forms the second stage of the improvements, are approaching completion.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I welcome improved efficiency in our tank situation, but can he say anything about the recent discovery to which his right honourable friend the Secretary of State recently referred: the armour plate which could prevent penetration and even destruction of tanks? Can he explain why the project has been made available to Iran at a cost of £500 million but will not be available to the British Army for 10 years?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is a problem. It is a new concept of armour. In order to convert the existing Chieftain both the turret and the hull would have to be replaced. This would cost £100 million at least, and would not be cost-effective.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, can my noble friend explain why it is that we are to receive £500 million from the Shah of Iran, when he can afford these sums, in order to obtain the project? Why not use the £500 million in order to provide the British Army with similar tank protection?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, it is a question of time-scale. I do not think the sheer Iran tank will be available for some years, and by that time the new family of tanks will presumably be coming into use in this country.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that during World War II we made the worst tanks in the world, and that subsequently with the Centurion and then the Chieftain we have made, if not the best tanks, certainly tanks among the best in the world? More importantly, will he assure the House that the talks which have now been taking place for some time with the Germans about the new main battle tank are proceeding satisfactorily ?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, they are certainly proceeding, and I believe satisfactorily.

Lord WIGG

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the trouble with the Chieftain is not only the armour? This is another white elephant come home to roost. In actual fact it is grossly under-engined compared with the Leopard. We need at least 25 per cent more power. They are excellent showpieces, but as fighting instruments today they are useless.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I refute every one of the statements made by my noble friend Lord Wigg?

Lord PEDDIE

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that at a recent WEU meeting a paper was presented which indicated the increasing preponderence of arms available to the Warsaw Pact countries over those of the Western Powers ? Can he give any assurance that the recent development in tank armour will do something to correct that imbalance within a reasonably short period of time ?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, not in a short period of time; but what is important is the laser sight which is in production and being issued to the tanks, and the improved fire control system and the muzzle reference system, which are approaching completion and will be available for installation long before the armour itself will be required.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, could my noble friend say, in reference to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, if the proposal now is that the German engines, which I believe technically are regarded as the best, can be wedded with the British tank frames, which also are technically regarded as the best, or are there to be two entirely separate developments ?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is another question, which perhaps we might discuss at another time.