§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
1102 The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their Representative at the United Nations has made any suggestion that, when accusations of torture in prisons are made against any Government, they should be encouraged to invite the International Red Cross to make investigations and report.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)No, my Lords. We of course abhor the use of torture and will give our unstinting support to measures designed to eliminate it or curtail its incidence.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask him whether he agrees that we might take a lead in this matter at the United Nations? The United Nations is supposed to help to set standards of humanity all over the world. Would he agree that if this question was put—and there is no point in having a vote—the Government would be willing to make this invitation to the Red Cross? The Red Cross has an international standing and would be acceptable to the world in general. At the moment practically every week we have descriptions of tortures of persons in prisons from an admirable society, I have no doubt, but it has not the same standing as the International Red Cross.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have every sympathy with the purpose of the noble Baroness's intervention. However, I think we might be well advised to concentrate on the fact that the United Nations itself, having produced an International Convention on Civil and Political Rights, Article 7 of which expressly forbids torture, and having set up a Human Rights Committee on which hopefully we may have our own representative, has the right machinery, if States' parties are willing to use it, to make a beginning on the attack on the use of torture wherever it happens.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, I should like to thank the Minister again for his reply. If we can make certain that we have a representative on this Committee that would he a step 1103 forward. Would he agree with me that those Governments which were not willing to invite the Red Cross in would obviously discredit themselves by their refusal, whereas those Governments who agreed to invite them would find it helpful not only to their standing in the world but to the prisoners? This is why I want to press strongly that we ourselves ought to make a start and an impression in this matter.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the suggestion has merit and I am in no way rejecting that or any comparable suggestion, or, indeed, suggestions for bilateral ad hoc interpellation with Governments with whom we have normal relations and to whom we can usefully make known our abhorrence of certain practices, always remembering of course that there is a danger of these representations being counterproductive. We have to be very careful about that. At the same time, while we are open to any suggestions, such as that made by the noble Baroness, it would be well for us to concentrate on making as effective as possible—hopefully as a member of the Human Rights Committee—and supervising the operation of, this covenant and the sister covenant on economic and cultural rights, at least in the next year or so.
§ Baroness HYLTON-FOSTERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the danger that Governments might try to use the International Committee of the Red Cross as a cover-up, having made certain that when they make their visit there is no evidence of torture?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there is, of course, that danger. These suggestions, as the noble Baroness will recognise, carry with them certain points of attraction and, on closer examination, certain points of difficulty and danger. That is no reason why such suggestions should not constantly be examined as additives to the central procedure of operating international covenants of this kind as effectively as we can.
§ Lord CARADONMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, whereas there may be objections to calling on the Red Cross to carry out such a difficult task, there is everything to be said for making a fuller use of an international endeavour 1104 through the United Nations to establish a system of international investigation similar to that which has long existed in the Council of Europe? Would he not agree that, if there could be international machinery to provide for international investigation, with the authority of the United Nations, we should act in accordance with that?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I certainly agree, and the first step towards that objective is to try to get a scat on this Human Rights Committee, which is after all a full-time body set up under the aegis of the United Nations.