§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now asked our diplomatic representatives to collect data concerning the remuneration and conditions of service under which African employees in Zambia, Malawi, Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania and Botswana work so that these can be compared with the equivalents paid in South Africa.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, no information has been sought about the remuneration and conditions of service of African employees in the countries mentioned; nor are there any plans to compare such information with similar information in respect of South Africa, which is a special case. The noble Lord is referring in his Question to independent African States where the indigenous workers enjoy political rights and the freedom to join trade unions. Wage rates in those countries are influenced by the activities of those trade unions and are generally at levels which accord with national development plans formulated by the sovereign Governments.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, if one is to set a standard for wages and remuneration which British firms pay in South Africa, would it not be logical to try to discover whether firms in neighbouring countries surrounding South Africa are paying comparable rates? If nothing is done to get this information through our commercial attaches, surely we are creating a disadvantage to British firms operating by the competitive price of their products; whereas the surrounding 1098 countries, housing firms from perhaps France, Germany and other industrial countries, may be paying lower rates and thereby getting some favouritism and better prices. is this not to the disadvantage of all who work in South Africa and of the British firms who operate there?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I think that it is generally recognised that South Africa is a special case in these matters because of the disadvantages at which the African worker is placed under the apartheid system. This has been the cause of the controversies over the last year or so. The questions that the noble Lord asks about comparisons with neighbouring States are perhaps matters for concern within international for a, but I do not think, since these countries are sovereign States, that it is a matter for British Government responsibility.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that, quite apart from apartheid, which is a different question, British firms have been denigrated by the suggestion that they are paying under the rate? All the evidence one can get unofficially is that this is not true and that they often pay over the general rate in those areas. Merely to say that because in what the noble Lord calls sovereign States the workers are free to join trade unions should not permit the world to denigrate British firms on the pay question. That is not in accord with what I would expect the British Government to try to do for their nationals.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, firms which operate in South Africa and are of the kind the noble Lord referred to are invited, and have been requested, by my right honourable friend to publish information indicating what are their wage standards. Some have done so and others have not done so. It would be well if all who were so invited were to publish that information.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, when my noble friend investigates this matter, could he let me know how the wage rates for women in these countries compare with the wage rates in South Africa?
Lord BARNBBYMy Lords, the Minister in his first reply mentioned trade unions in connection with the countries named. Is it thought that the trades unions in those countries have the same kind of independent status that trades unions enjoy in this country?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the workers have the freedom to join their trade unions and they are free trades unions. That, I think, is an important difference between the countries named in the Question and South Africa.
§ Lord SAINSBURYMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that some of the countries mentioned in the Question do not compare with South Africa in wealth or in industrial development, and thus in the ability to pay?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, that is most certainly the case. I hope that no one will seek to justify inadequate wages in British-owned enterprises in South Africa simply on the basis that South Africa is surrounded by poverty-stricken countries.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider whether it is realistic to say that in the countries surrounding South Africa the trades union are as highly organised as he suggests? Would it not help the trades unions to negotiate for better rates of pay if they knew how their wages compared with those paid in South Africa? He might be assisting the wellbeing of the coloured people surrounding South Africa. Would he not consider this most seriously? Is he not aware that the firm impression exists that in fact some 10,000 Africans travel on foot into South Africa in order to get jobs with better remuneration and better consideration than in their own countries? Would it not be useful for all Africa to know what wages are paid in the surrounding countries?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I return to the point that it is not Her Majesty's Government's responsibility to make these comparisons. I have already dealt with the underlying cause of the long walk to seek employment. This is, 1100 understandably, due to the surrounding poverty. As to the point about the organisation of trades unions within these countries, it is true that they are infant movements because these countries are infant countries. One does not expect miracles of social organisation within the course of two or three decades. But my main point is that they are on the right road, and South Africa in these matters is on the wrong road.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, the Minister says that it is the duty, as I understand it, of the British Government to inquire what British companies are paying in South Africa. Is it also the duty of the British Government to inquire what rates of pay are being paid by British companies, some of which operate in these other countries?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, there is no reason, I suppose, why such an investigation could not be made through the proper channels. The point is that special representations in respect of the special case of South Africa were made, and the Government responded to those representations.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, is it not a fact that if the British Government asked about the wages that British companies were paying in these other countries, they would find it extremely embarrassing for their case?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, most certainly not. The reason for low wages in the surrounding countries is the abject poverty in those countries. I will readily debate with the noble Lord the causes of that poverty: but it is no justification to defend inadequate wages in South Africa on that basis.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, would it not be true to say that the countries adjoining South Africa, whether or not they have lower wages, prefer lower wages—and might even prefer hunger—and freedom of movement, freedom to join trade unions? Is it not extraordinary that noble Lords opposite do not understand that men prefer freedom even where they have hunger?
Lord ORAMYes, my Lords. There are many aspects of freedom and my 1101 noble friend has drawn attention to the important ones. But another important aspect is the freedom to enjoy a reasonable standard of living; and the Government's policy in the aid and development field is directed towards that end.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, surely the noble Lord the Minister will agree that the fact—and it is a fact—that higher wages are paid in South Africa because it is richer highlights the need for Western technology to be deployed in these countries; and, furthermore, for these countries to accept that and provide conditions to enable Western technologists to go there.
Lord ORAMYes, my Lords, I think it is well known that we have aid and development arrangements with these countries with that end in view,
§ Several noble Lords: Order, order!
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am so sorry that I have had to interrupt my noble friend, but more than nine minutes have now gone by on this Question. We know the great interest that noble Lords feel regarding this Question, but we have three more to come, quite a long day ahead of us, and another tomorrow. I think it right therefore that we should brine, this Question to an end.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, in view of the widespread interest manifested in this matter would not publication of the Lonrho report provide much Valued information to all—
§ Several noble Lords: Order, order!