DEFENCE (Hansard, 18 February 1976)

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)
My Lords, I take it that my noble friend has in mind a Standing Committee. The Commons Committee on Expenditure, through its Sub-Committee on Defence and External Affairs, pay particular attention to the resources devoted to defence, and the publication of reports and evidence is of help to both Houses in considering defence matters. I would be reluctant to propose any additional demands on the Ministry of Defence or Parliament when we are seeking major reductions in establishment. However, I am prepared, through the usual channels, to see whether there is sufficient interest to establish an informal all-Party group from Members of this House.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the term "United Kingdom "contained in the Question does not exclude Europe or any other country against which there could be an act of aggression? Would he not agree with me that, in view of the international tension which appears to be accelerating through various incidents that are now taking place in different parts of the world, the time has come to obtain a consensus of opinion on matters relating to defence and to the possibility 473 of aggression, which would be of substantial advantage, at least in furnishing information to Members of your Lordships' House and, indeed, Members of another place on matters concerning defence preparations?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, so far as another place is concerned, they are well served by their own Sub-Committee on Defence and External Affairs. I said in my original Answer that, so far as your Lordships' House is concerned, I was quite willing to consult through the usual channels to see whether there was sufficient interest to set up an informal all-Party group within this House. Of course a consensus of opinion in this matter is of great importance, but my noble friend will be aware of a number of organisations which have an interest in this matter, and there are a number of your Lorships who have served, and continue to serve, as delegates to the NATO Parliamentary Conference, which provides a great opportunity to consider not only the defence of Europe but also the many other factors which go side by side with military defence.

§ Lord ABERDARE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we on these Benches have a great deal of sympathy with the feeling which underlies the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, and that we would very much welcome what the noble Lord the Leader of the House said—that is, discussions on the setting up of an informal all-Party committee through the usual channels?

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, if there is any suggestion that would be agreeable to experts in this House, then we too would very much welcome it. It could not do any harm, and it might do some good. Certainly it is a good thing to interest the public so far as we can in this vital matter.

§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGH
My Lords, is it not a fact that an all-Party delegation from this House went to NATO in January? Could the noble Lord tell us whether we arc going to get a report?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, as regards that, my understanding is that it was an informal group that went. It is not usual for them to issue a report to the 474 House, although, of course, when we consider matters of defence under the White Paper, then one would hope that those who had the opportunity to go to the NATO headquarters would give us the benefit of their impressions and information.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that a Conservative Foreign Secretary on, I think, the 30th September 1954 committed this country to the maintenance of four divisions and the Second Tactical Air Force on the European land mass until the end of this century? If that was his conception of an "adequate defence "and an adequate discharge of our obligations to NATO, could the noble Lord tell us at what point of time it is anticipated that the "adequate defence "which is referred to in the Question will be fulfilled?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, my noble friend is not going to lead me astray and away from the advice that I have given to this House on a number of occasions, that we ought to keep to the Question on the Order Paper. The Question here is about setting up a Joint Select Committee of both Houses, and I have sought to answer it to the best of my ability.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Question itself contains the words I used? It says: to discuss with the Secretary of State for Defence the provision of adequate defence measures". As the formula for "adequate defence" was this specific commitment—as I say, from the most respectable quarters: Lord Avon, the then Foreign Secretary—can we know whether that content has been completely abandoned and, if not, when it is to be fulfilled and, perhaps, in addition, at what cost?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, again I must say to my noble friend that he will not lead me astray in this matter.

§ Lord BOURNE
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that I have been asking this very question for the last seven or eight years; and would it not be better to have a defence committee of both Houses? While he is satisfied with the arrangements for the House of Commons, he 475 ought not to be satisfied with the arrangements for the House of Lords. Personally I think we ought to do some catching up with the Americans, after a hundred years of their defence committee.

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, that is a matter of opinion. So far as another place is concerned, whether their arrangements are adequate is a matter for them to decide. If the joint committee envisaged in the Question is to be set up, we should need the co-operation of another place. I said to my noble friend originally that at this moment, when we are seeking reductions in cost and there are pressures on manpower both in the Ministry of Defence and in Parliament, we should be very careful about setting up further committees to deal with matters that, so far as another place is concerned, are already being dealt with. I have said that so far as this House is concerned I am willing to consider, through the usual channels, the setting up of an informal committee. I do not think that we should go any further in this matter at the present moment.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, in view of my noble friend's welcome reply—welcome so far as it refers to consultation through the usual channels—will he be kind enough to do so at as early a date as possible, and then to inform the House of the result?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, in the light of the response of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, I should not have thought that there was any difficulty in having consultations and making an announcement. I should like a few days in which to consider this and may perhaps be able to make a Statement next week. I should like to feel that the interest goes beyond one or two noble Lords. The setting up of this committee ought to be in response to a general feeling throughout the House that such a committee is required.

§ Lord PANNELL
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the sort of information that would be laid before such a committee would not be worth publishing?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, if that is the case there is no point in setting up 476 a committee, but I should not personally take that view.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, no doubt the noble Lord will bear in mind the wealth of professional expertise that is at the service of this House, and particularly on the Cross-Benches.

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, I am very much aware of that.

§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, expresses the feelings of many Members of this House and of people throughout the country, that the present Government do not take a serious attitude towards defence and that defence should not come in for cuts at this time of Russian success and there being no sign of success of détente? This feeling is held by others apart from the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell.

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, I hope that on consideration the noble Lord will think that his intervention is unfair in the light of what I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, that he wished to take the matter further than the Question on the Order Paper. This is what the noble Lord himself has done and this is not the custom of the House.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend to whom in the other place he will make application for this joint meeting? Is he aware that there are so many specialists—or those who claim to be specialists—on defence matters and on foreign affairs, not only in this Chamber but in another place? Is my noble friend further aware that there are committees set up by each Party —and to my knowledge since I became a Member of this House and of another place it has always been so—who meet on various occasions to debate matters of foreign affairs and defence?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
Yes, my Lords. Not only are there various international organisations but I know that within my own Parliamentary Party we have our own committees which go into these matters with great care. I have no doubt that there are similar committees within the Conservative Party. In the light of the fact that I have gone some way 477 towards my noble friend (and he has recognised it) I wonder whether we might leave the matter where it is. In the not too far distant future there may arise an opportunity when I may be able to satisfy my noble friend.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House not aware that to some extent he has missed the point of the Question? It may be that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has in mind a committee composed of Members of this House; but is he not aware that for many years—far beyond seven or eight years—there has been a thought among people who think about these matters that there ought to be a committee which would really be an extension of the Esher Committee, the Committee on Imperial Defence, on which the Opposition Parties would be invited to serve so that they could consider strategy and adequate defence in terms which would eventually command a much wider air of approval than at present? Whereas I wholly support something along those lines, I am not terribly interested in a committee composed of Members of this House to twiddle around with the Estimates.

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, the other place have had a debate on the procedure of Parliament, and my understanding is that there was a genuine feeling that there ought to be a thorough review of procedure there. I would express the view that if they were to do that, we ought ourselves to have a similar committee to look into our own procedure not only in terms of ourselves as a House, but in our relations with another place. The sort of point that my noble friend has raised is one that could then be considered by that committee. But it will be a matter of days or perhaps weeks before we could have a Motion and a debate on that subject. I would say to the noble Lord that my mind is not closed as to ways and means of improving not only the relations with another place but the way in which we carry out our working in this House.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, would not the right course be to get on with the suggestion made by the Leader of the House and see what comes of it?

§ Lord SHEPHERD
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord.