§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of any agencies which have led to an increase of 207 per cent, in the number of abortions performed in this country last year on women resident in Italy; whether they have any information about the clinics where these abortions took place; what was the average cost; and what steps they propose to take in the matter.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my noble friend has raised a number of points in the Question and therefore I crave your Lordships' indulgence for a slightly longer reply than normal. The only agencies of which the Government are aware are various Italian women's organisations. These organisations have recently become increasingly active in disseminating material about abortions as part of the movement in Italy for new abortion laws, and this has included information on the availability of treatment in this country. The Abortion Act requires the notification of every operation, and in addition details are obtained 469 from all approved nursing homes as to the number of non-resident women treated and their normal country of residence.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has information about the total cost charged to patients at nursing homes that concentrate on abortion, and these charges may not be increased without her knowledge. It is not possible to indicate an average cost; the cost varies between nursing homes and from case to case, depending upon the duration of the pregnancy and other medical factors. It would be considered unreasonable if the total cost to a patient in a straightforward case, where the pregnancy was of less than 13 weeks duration, was in excess of £100. Many patients are treated for a total cost of between £60 and £70.
Women from Italy receive treatment under the Abortion Act privately in nursing homes that also provide treatment to British people for various conditions including abortion. My right honourable friend is satisfied from inspections made and checks enforced as to the standard of care and facilities they provide.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for that lengthy and very informative reply. Can he say to what extent the facilities of the National Health Service were used for these cases? Can he also say what is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government towards this problem? If they view it favourably, then the number of these cases is likely to increase in the future, at a time when facilities are inadequate for treatment of our own English mothers under the National Health Service. If the Government view it unfavourably, can my noble friend state whether any representations have been made to the doctors concerned? Furthermore, does not the existence of this traffic tend to undermine the rule of law in a friendly country, and also a fellow-member of the EEC?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, medical treatment in this country is available privately to all who seek it, irrespective of place of residence. The medical profession has not hitherto had to take account of nationality or residence before giving treatment to a patient. It is the 470 view of the Government that very strong reasons would be required before any departure from this practice could be contemplated. With regard to the major point which my noble friend has just raised, I think that the 207 per cent. increase in Italian patients should be seen in perspective. The increase represents a rise of 3,601, from 1,703 in 1974 to 5,304 in 1975. Much more important is the dramatic fall in this period of the total number of foreign women having aboritions here; it fell by 19,812. The largest factor in this decline was the change in the abortion law in France in 1974. As your Lordships will know, a Bill is being considered currently by the Italian Parliament to ease the existing law under which abortion is a crime. We assume that if that Bill goes through there will be a fall in numbers so far as the Italian women are concerned, as there was so far as the French women were concerned.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind the position in Italy that drives Italian women here? Figures from the best available sources—the Italian Ministry of Health—indicate that there were something like 800,000 illegal abortions in Italy last year; and the World Health Organisation estimates that there were 1½ million abortions there in 1974 and that 2,000 women died from abortions. Does this not show what a benefit the 1968 Abortion Act is to the people in this country; and do we think that any woman coming here, in desperation and with enough money to pay for an abortion, should be turned away?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think I can add anything that would be useful, other than to say that the position may well change if the draft Bill which is currently being considered in Italy in fact becomes law.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, in view of what he has said about legislation appearing in other countries and the numbers dropping, whether he agrees that it is essential that, in the meanwhile, we should help these women, and that if women are willing to pay as much as £600 to come and have an abortion in this country they must be rather desperate? May I say to the noble Lord—
Baroness VICKERSMay I ask the noble Lord whether or not he feels that the medical profession has been rather lax in producing a contraceptive that is really safe? No contraceptive is safe at the moment except, as I said in a debate in the other place, the word, "No ".
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I subscribe to the first part of the noble Baronesses's remarks. With regard to the second part, this is not an opportune time for somebody in my Department to criticise the medical profession.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, does not this Question illustrate the continuing, punishing, primitive attitude of some men towards women—
§ Baroness GAITSKELL—and the triple punishing attitude to the mother, to the child and to society, insisting that a woman must have an unwanted child? Is it not also rather nauseating that when people put this view forward they smother it with Victorian piety?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is quite clear that my noble friend has your Lordships' support.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, with all due deference to the views of the noble Baroness, which we all realise are very strongly held, may I ask my noble friend perhaps to give additional information and say that none of the nursing homes which have been called in question will be in any way prejudiced as regards registration when that time arrives?
Lord WELL-PESTELLMy Lords, I think your Lordships will remember that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has power to see that there are frequent visits to these nursing homes, and in fact frequent visits are made. From time to time it has been necessary for her to close some of them: one in 1969, six in 1970, two in 1971, five in 1972, three in 1973 and one in 1974. This, I think, is an indication of how carefully their activities are being observed.
Viscount BARRINGTONMy Lords, in view of what the noble Lord said about this being the only occasion on which a 472 differentiation has been made between foreign and English patients, and that the strongest reasons would be needed to make one, would it not be a strong reason that this is the only operation the specific purpose of which is to take human life?