HL Deb 09 December 1976 vol 378 cc697-713

3.55 p.m.

Lord MELCHETT rose to move, That the draft Appropriation (No.3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, laid before the House on 8th November, be approved. The noble Lord said: This order authorises the appropriation out of the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund of the supply requirements set out in the Autumn Supplementary Estimates. It is the second Northern Ireland Appropriation Order to come before your Lordships' House during the current financial year. The order provides a sum of £61 million, and would bring the total Estimates provision to date for 1976–77 to some £1,099 million, an increase of £71 million over the total Estimates for 1975–1976. The Schedule to the order details the services for which extra provision is required, and further information is contained in the volume of Autumn Supplementary Estimates, which is available in the Library.

A large part of the additional provision sought is required to meet pay and price increases, the pay element of which, of course, conforms with the present counter-inflation policy. The most important items in these Supplementary Estimates are £11 million for assistance to the shipbuilding industry; £9.5 million to meet higher supplementary benefit payments; £5.3 million to meet increased claims on the temporary employment subsidy; and £4.5 million for additional road improvements and maintenance. My Lords, I should like to add that the creation of the new Department of the Civil Service on the 1st October 1976 has required the rearrangement of certain provisions in Classes XI and XII. The Supplementary Estimates volume to which I have already referred gives the details of the financial adjustments between Votes which have become necessary. This order will be considered in another place, but this short summary indicates to noble Lords opposite, I hope, the general nature of its contents. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft Appropriation (No.3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, laid before the House on 8th November, be approved.—(Lord Melchett.)

3.57 p.m.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, this Appropriation Order is being introduced at a crucial time for the Northern Ireland economy, and I believe the Government would allow us to go a little wide of the order as this is one of the few occasions we get to look at some aspects of the Budget for Northern Ireland. I shall try not to go too wide, and certainly not to be too long. Recently a report has been published, prepared by a Civil Service committee, called the Quigley Report, taking its name from the Northern Ireland Permanent Secretary who chaired that committee, and I would suggest that the Quigley Report leaves no doubt of the graver features of industrial and commercial life in Northern Ireland today.

From that report, if one does not know it anyway, one can see that unemployment is higher than at any time since the war, yet Northern Ireland has the highest rate of natural population increase in the whole of the United Kingdom. Those involved in agriculture, forestry and also fishing are facing difficulties; and the staple industries of clothing and textiles and shipbuilding are competing, on the one hand, with artificially low-priced imports and, on the other, with a recession; and, of course, overall hangs the continued violence and destruction. It is not all gloom, though, and may I say how glad I was to read in this morning's Daily Telegraph a report attributed to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who gave some good news, I thought, about what is going on in Northern Ireland and pointed quite rightly to a matter which my noble friend Lord Brookeborough has mentioned—the good industrial relations record in Northern Ireland. I think this sets these very grave features in the right context.

I should like to ask some questions about the Quigley Report, because I think that report is relevant to this order. I am absolutely certain that it is right for the Northern Ireland Office to have a forward plan for the economy. Indeed, this was pressed upon the predecessor of the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, from these Benches many months ago. The 1970–75 Development Plan gave the first Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right honourable friend Mr. Whitelaw, objectives to work to when he suddenly took office in 1972; but that Development Plan was drawn up from outside Government by outside consultants while this report has been prepared from within Government. I should like to ask whether the Government are now ready to make a statement—which they have not done so far—about their attitude to the Quigley Report and whether they accept its conclusions and its general strategic approach.

It would appear from reading the report that the Committee placed considerable faith on a heavily-subsidised economy for Northern Ireland with the State taking a very wide and active role. Again I would accept that, but for Government intervention, Northern Ireland would not have achieved as much as it has done in recent years. Certainly this is part of the two-Party agreement on policy towards Northern Ireland. My noble friend Lord O'Neill of the Maine in the debate on the Queen's Speech last week mentioned the large number of foreign firms attracted in the past to the Province. He was personally responsible for attracting many of these projects and the Daily Telegraph article that I have mentioned quoted the Secretary of State as saying that four US companies are investing £17 million in fresh projects. That is all good news, but at a time when 36 per cent. of all employees in Northern Ireland are in the public sector compared with only 30 per cent. in Great Britain, and when presumably, probably within a week, Government spending is going to have to face further severe restraint, I should like to ask this. Can total reliance, can as great reliance as the Quigley Report would seem to wish to see, on the State as the main provider of employment really be the one foundation for the economic future of the Province? I have grave doubts about that.

There are three specific questions about the Quigley Report. Although the Committee appear to be reconciled to a considerable reduction in the workforce at Harland and Wolff, are the Government persuaded that this will be inevitable? Any assessment which the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, could give to the House today about the future of this great shipyard would be of help, I think, to many people, including the many businesses in Northern Ireland which are dependent upon the yard. I wonder whether the noble Lord could say whether any attempts have been made recently by Harland and Wolff to try to diversify any of their activities. May I venture the question whether there is any possibility of a defence contract of any kind going to this yard in the foreseeable future?

Secondly, I should like to ask the Government about any plans they might have to deal with the enormous increases in energy costs in Northern Ireland. On 23rd July in another place Mr. Moyle stated that the Shepherd Report on the electricity supply industry was going to be published within a few weeks. I had understood that a similar report was being prepared on the gas industry in Northern Ireland. Energy costs to industry have risen by 50 per cent. more in Northern Ireland than in Great Britain. It really is an astonishing figure. Surely, here would be an appropriate opportunity for some Government financial intervention.

The third question arising from the Quigley Report is this. Is there any chance of the Government considering what is known as the "tax holiday scheme" of incentives for exporters which, I understand, is current in the Republic and which was recommended by the Quigley Committee? My noble friend may be mentioning this also. I should have thought that there is merit in rewarding those who succeed in the export field rather than relying solely upon the distribution of grants before a project begins, but I am not an expert in this subject and I am genuinely asking the noble Lord a question on this.

Finally, I turn to two subjects covered by the order. First, agriculture. There is no doubt that the disparity between the prices on the two sides of the Border in Ireland because of the different values of the Green Pound demonstrates clearly the disadvantage which all United Kingdom farmers experience in this respect; but it is seen in greater clarity in Northern Ireland because one can look across the Bprder and see with one's own eyes areas where different prices are being fixed for the same produce. On the 19th October the Secretary of State announced the introduction of a scheme, to last four weeks only, to support the Northern Ireland meat industry. The scheme was subsequently extended to February of next year. Can the Government estimate the total costs of this meat industry employment scheme? Does the £2,000,600 referred to under Class I refer to this? What do the Government intend to do after next February to support the meat industry in Northern Ireland? Has the scheme helped to reduce the volume of cross-Border smuggling?

Secondly, turning to education, Class VIII of this order deals with education with over £2¾ million under this Appropriation Order being appropriated for expenditure on schools. May I take this opportunity to ask about the reorganisation of secondary schools in Northern Ireland because the figure of some £4 million additional capital expenditure has been put on that as an estimate by the Government's consultative document published in the summer and therefore it is appropriate to raise it now. Are the Government intending to reorganise secondary schools in Northern Ireland before a devolved Northern Ireland Government can be established? I ask this particularly because the education and library boards, although doing good work, are not democratic local government council committees as we think of them in Great Britain. If the Government are determined to proceed in this matter, I should be interested to know how they intend to discover what are the local wishes, in the absence of any elected Northern Ireland Government and in the absence of fully elected local councils.

I would also ask whether the Government will take seriously into account the special position of the grammer schools in Northern Ireland. I thought that the statement in the Consultative Document that, as compared with Great Britain, the role played by the independent schools is insignificant, was rather misleading. I am sure it was not meant to be but it was a misleading statement in view of the existence of what is known as the "Group B" grammer schools in Northern Ireland, which are virtually independent schools. May I just say that I trust the Government are going to consider all the time the interdenominational issue with regard to reorganisation. The grammar schools in Northern Ireland make considerable efforts, not without success, to try to admit pupils of all denominations. The difficulty is that if neighbourhood comprehensive schools are established, this will polarise denominational teaching.

May I ask, finally, how the Department's estimate of the cost of secondary reoganisation in Northern Ireland as being £4 million extra capital expenditure compares with the normal year's capital allocation for secondary education in Northern Ireland? It would be interesting to know that figure. With that final question, with some reservations, and hoping to get some information from the noble Lord who is to reply, I will support the passage of this order.

4.9 p.m.

Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH

My Lords, I should like to congratulate my noble friend on his comprehensive review of the subject. He has left me with little to say except to emphasise the points that he has raised. I should like to say that in the Cowan Report on future education, although the Executive in Northern Ireland in its short existence agreed in principle to try to pursue integrated education, there is produced for the Government to study, in the Consultative Document, nothing about integrated education. I think that is a very grave error. Also, I hope the Government will find that their principles are clear: that this should be a matter for the people of Northern Ireland and not for the employment of political principles which apply to Great Britain. However, I hope that I can assure my noble friend that the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, will be duly educated by the people in Northern Ireland. Certainly, if he is not, it will not be for lack of my efforts in entertaining him and showing him integrated schools where conditions are extremely good and which should be expanded.

I am grateful to this House for allowing us to discuss the affairs of Northern Ireland in a broader sense than we should be in dealing with this appropriation. I feel very strongly that when the miniBudget appears, with all the problems which will arise from it, Northern Ireland could easily be forgotten. Therefore it is very good that we have this appropriation order before the mini-Budget.

I am afraid that the news from Northern Ireland in the past seven years has always been very depressing. We are now in a position where we must have a major catastrophe for it to become headline news. In 1972, my right honourable friend Mr. Maudling talked about an acceptable level of violence. I am afraid that we are now getting to a state when people in this country, and the Government in particular, are prepared to have an acceptable level of depression in the economy of Northern Ireland. The previous Secretary of State, the right honourable Merlyn Rees, commissioned the Quigley Report. When he did so, he said that the economy of Northern Ireland was in a critical state. The report by Dr. Quigley agreed. This report has been published, and we should like to know what the Government are going to do about it, and when. If the situation was critical when the Secretary of State spoke about it earlier in the year, it must be much more critical now.

I do not know how many noble Lords realise the true state of unemployment in Northern Ireland. As a United Kingdom equivalent it is ½ million people, and that is a great number. In some towns 30 per cent. of the workforce is unemployed. The people who remember the appalling years of the depression will know what a demoralising effect that must have on any society; and in a society which has violence as well the problem is very much more serious. I wonder whether we would have discussed shipbuilding and aircraft nationalisation if there were 2½ million people unemployed in this country. Certainly the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, would have had an easier eight weeks.

Expressed in terms of gross domestic product, Northern Ireland relies to the extent of 85 per cent. on public expenditure. It follows that while it may be totally justified to cut public expenditure in the United Kingdom as a whole, its effect on Northern Ireland will be disproportionate. If the Government expect their new measures to increase unemployment by, say, 1 per cent. in this country, then how much greater a proportion will remain unemployed in Northern Ireland where, due to violence and other factors, the dependence on public expenditure is so much greater?

As a nation, we have accepted the theory and practice of regional responsibility. We have declared certain areas to be development areas. When we have a development area where the problem is so bad, as it is in Northern Ireland, we must have very special treatment. My noble friend has touched on this: there are two particular elements, the short-term and the long-term. The Quigley Report highlighted the fact that in the shortterm the only remedy to help immediately in Northern Ireland must be an increase and not a decrease in public expenditure. In arguing for this as a short-term measure, I do not believe that it should go beyond the short-term. I always wonder what "short-term means when expressed as Government policy. There must be some effort to plan for the long-term. At the present moment there is no other remedy immediately available. There are certain areas which are crying out; in housing, for instance. Since 1972, the number of houses completed has gone down by 40 per cent. and, at the same time, some 30 per cent. of the entire workforce in the construction industry are unemployed. Goodness knows! we have seen enough on television of the physical squalor in those areas which are affected by violence.

To turn to the industrial front, the Northern Ireland Electricity Authority, in conjunction with the Northern Ireland Government and the British Government of the time, decided that they would rely on oil as the fuel to produce electricity. The result is that electricity in Northern Ireland costs 40 per cent. more than it does here. In all conscience, this was a governmental error, not a consumer error. Therefore, in my view, in the short term the Government should do something to help the consumers, whether industrialists or private users.

In the longer term, the Government have to be as inventive and original in the production of incentives as the Northern Ireland Government were in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. The seriousness of the difficulty of establishing new industries in Northern Ireland was highlighted the other day by the chairman of Unilever who said that the costs had now gone so high in Northern Ireland, with transport, with inaccessibility and electricity costs, that it was almost impossible to attract new industry there. I am delighted to see the new industry which has been established in Newry, headed by Mr. Fox, a man whom I had the honour of entertaining in this House for lunch. I welcome very much the arrival of this industry. It has a great future, but it is a special case. It is concerned with carpet backing and is allied to industries already in existence in Northern Ireland. It does not invalidate the point that it is going to be difficult, without brand new incentives, to attract new industries into Northern Ireland. There are many ways that the Government can do this, with tax free holidays and other incentives. The Government have to make their decision either to give new incentives or take the alternative which, in all humanity, they would be forced to take; that is, to pump the economy of Northern Ireland full of Government money. In these days, when we are talking of getting the economy of the United Kingdom right, it is difficult to plead that Northern Ireland should have special treatment.

In the estimates there is the figure of £11 million for Harland and Wolff. I should like to ask the noble Lord how that money is to be provided? How was it dealt with in the past and how will it be provided in the future? I cannot understand why this is not put forward by the shipbuilding industry board as it is in other parts of the United Kingdom, because the last time that Harland and Wolff were given money, £37 million of it came out of the Northern Ireland economy directly. The appropriations for roads, universities and other buildings were cut. This is setting town against country which is a very dangerous precedent. Further to that, it is setting one part of the City of Belfast against another.

I have also given the Government notice that I should like to know how much is the dependence of Northern Ireland on subventions from the United Kingdom Treasury? Is it a fact that in 1975–76 with a total public expenditure of £1,560 million, of this only £900 million is generated within Northern Ireland? Will the Government state categorically that it is unthinkable for this Government, or any other, to provide the £650 million to bring the budget up to the figure required for an independent Northern Ireland which would be unaccountable to this Parliament for the expenditure? Maybe this is somethingwhich should be bipartisan in approach and we should get both parties to make this clear. I am so dedicated to the maintenance of the union of the United Kingdom that the certainty of the catastrophic financial state that would ensue should be made clear to all the people of Northern Ireland. It should be made crystal clear so that when they talk about independence, they know exactly how that will affect the people of Northern Ireland.

Lastly, my Lords. I want to say to the Government that I find it very difficult to see the urgency which the last Secretary of State had when he said that the economy of Northern Ireland was in a critical state. We have a civil war, and one of the strategic aims of the terrorist is so to ruin the commercial structure of a community that they will no longer have the will to win—and the destruction in Londonderry, where 30 per cent. of the shops went up in one night, is a perfect example. In order to combat that, it may he necessary to provide a seemingly unreasonable amount of money, but to defeat the terrorist and maintain our Union I believe it is going to be necessary to take some very extreme measures. Therefore I support the order.

4.22 p.m.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, may I first thank the noble Viscount and the noble Lord for their support for the order which is before your Lordships' House. I should also like to thank them for the points they have raised and of which they have been kind enough to give me notice. I shall do my best to answer at least some of the wide ranging and often complicated and difficult questions they have put to me.

I should like to get out of the way, to begin with, one particular point that I hope can be taken fairly briefly. It was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, in connection with the Meat Industry Employment Scheme. The noble Lord asked about the cost of the scheme. I would tell him that the estimated cost of the present Meat Industry Employment Scheme from its inception to the 19th February 1977 will be £4 million for cattle and £600,000 for pigs. No decision has yet been taken about continuing the Scheme beyond February 1977. As the noble Lord knows, the Scheme was intended to safeguard employment in the meat processing and ancillary industries by maintaining supplies of cattle and pigs to the plants. I am happy to be able to tell both noble Lords that the Scheme has been very successful indeed, but obviously we shall be considering its future between now and the date it is due to end on 19th February 1977.

Turning from that specific point to the more general remarks made by both noble Lords on the economic position in Northern Ireland, the Government are well aware of Northern Ireland's economic difficulties and, in particular, the appallingly high rates of unemployment mentioned by the noble Viscount. I would entirely agree with him about the serious social consequences which these very high rates of unemployment have had in particular towns and, in general, the serious social consequences of the high rate of unemployment throughout Northern Ireland as a whole. I think what is quite astounding—and this was one of the features of life in Northern Ireland which has pleasantly surprised me since I have been over there—is the extent to which life is able to go on, despite the very serious economic problems and the appalling problems of violence which face everybody in the Province. The extent to which people get on with the job and provide Government and other services throughout Northern Ireland is something I have also found astonishing. It is a remarkable achievement by all those people who are involved in Northern Ireland.

Ministers are determined to deal with the economic problems in Northern Ireland, and it is only right that I should draw attention to the continuing high level of financial incentives offered to industry and to the many measures which have been taken in Northern Ireland—often, as I have also been pleasantly surprised to find, in advance of similar measures being adopted in Great Britain. I think that that, again, reflects the high quality of administration in Northern Ireland, and I am speaking not only of the political personnel but of other administrators. Northern Ireland gets its fair share of counter-unemployment packages as they are announced by my right honourable friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Employment. An indication of the Government's concern was the setting up of the review of economic and industrial strategy which produced the Quigley Report, to which both speakers have referred. The report has been published, and I would stress the importance attached by the Government to public discussion and public understanding of the complicated and serious issues with which the report deals. However, the report is not a policy document, and I think that my right honourable friend and others of my honourable friends have made that clear from the start.

The report sets out strategic options and is published as something we can consult people about and as a basis from which to consider future actions. Wide consultations are continuing throughout Northern Ireland, and therefore the Government are not in a position to pronounce on the recommendations, including something which both the noble Viscount and the noble Lord mentioned: the option of a tax holiday. I think it is important, as serious as the position is, I that the Government ought to be in a position to consult widely about what is a very thick report, as those who have attempted to read at least some of it will know. These complicated issues have to be got right, so that any steps that are taken shall be the right ones. Consultations are continuing and will continue. The Government attach great importance to close co-operation between employers, trade unions and the Government.

I should like to echo the mention of the encouraging developments referred to by both noble Lords, particularly investment from various foreign countries. I would mention in particular the expansion of Fords, and of the Hughes Tool and Berkshire companies; and I would reiterate the excellent industrial relations record we were talking about in connection with the previous order. I hope that will encourage more firms from Great Britain and abroad to invest in Northern Ireland and that the mention of it will encourage the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, to see that certainly the Government do not intend to rely 100 per cent. on public employment and publicly-financed employment. My honourable friend the Minister of State attaches great importance to encouraging firms from Great Britain and overseas to, invest in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord may have seen some of the publicity which illustrates how hard my honourable friend has worked to accentuate the good aspects of Northern Ireland in order to encourage people from this country to invest in Northern Ireland.

Both noble Lords asked me detailed questions about the position of Harland and Wolff. I was asked whether the Government are prepared to give any assessment at this stage about the company's future. As this is primarily a financial debate, perhaps I should start by referring to the £60 million which was committed to the company in August last year, when Harland and Wolff was taken into public ownership. I am glad to report that drawings from this sum are more or less, allowing for weekly or monthly swings, on the course that was predicted. Noble Lords will recollect that the money was intended to allow the company to complete its current order book in late 1978 or early 1979. Future prospects clearly depend on the size and scope of new orders and upon the ability of the company to convince potential buyers that it is competitive as to price and delivery.

I am sure that I do not need to remind noble Lords of the serious state of the world's shipbuilding industry, in the face of too few orders chasing grossly excess capacity. However, I am not breaching commercial confidence if I say that Harland and Wolff is vigorously following up a number of leads, any one of which will have a significant impact on the order book if current inquiries lead to firm orders. I am sure noble Lords will understand if I say that I would rather not say any more about that at this stage.

The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, mentioned the possibility of diversification at Harland and Wolff. While the scope for the redeployment of traditional shipbuilding skills is to some extent limited, the company continues to investigate possibilities for diversification in several fields. But any major advances in this direction are, in the short-term, inhibited by the overriding importance of delivering the remaining ships in the order book within the contract times stipulated; and, of course, I emphasise the importance of that if the company is to secure orders on the basis of being able to meet delivery dates. Perhaps I should also add that a prerequisite of diversification would be new investment in the company, and this would, of course, require separate approval.

The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, also asked me about the possibility of defence contracts going to Harland and Wolff. As I have said, the overriding task of the company at present is to ensure the completion and delivery of ships in the current order book, which does not include defence work, within the contract times that have been stipulated. Although Harland and Wolff has been invited on a number of occasions to tender for the refitting of Royal Fleet auxiliaries, acceptance of such work in present circumstances would detract from that overriding task. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is, of course, keeping a very careful eye on the development of future plans for the company.

If I may turn briefly to the points that were made about energy costs in Northern Ireland, I am able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, that the Shepherd Report and the report on the gas industry are both under active consideration, and I expect that both are likely to be published in early 1977. Of course, I would underline the great importance which both the noble Lord and the noble Viscount attached to the high costs of both electricity and gas in Northern Ireland, and I can assure them that this is something of which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is very much aware. As I said, these reports are under active consideration at this time.

I have left till last the questions I was asked on the one area of my own Ministerial responsibilities—education. The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, asked me first about the consultations which are currently going on on the Cowan Report on secondary education reorganisation. Of course, the Government would much prefer decisions of this kind to be taken by a devolved Administration, but in the absence of such a body I firmly believe—and I hope noble Lords will agree—that government must go on and decisions of this kind, and many other difficult and complicated decisions, will have to be taken over the coming months and later.

The idea of comprehensive education in Northern Ireland, as both the noble Lord and the noble Viscount will know, is by no means a recent or a new one. The Burgess Report, which recommended the abolition of the 11-plus and the restructuring of secondary education, was presented to one of my predecessors over four years ago: and the idea of going comprehensive had, of course, been mentioned many times before that, particularly in some reports before the Burgess Report came out with a firm recommendation. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, that I attach particular importance during the period of consultation on the Cowan Report, which is to continue—and I have extended it to Easter next year—to consulting with local opinion throughout Northern Ireland, and I have been very much heartened by the extent to which a constructive, sensible, useful and well-informed debate is taking place in Northern Ireland on the complicated issues raised by the report.

One has only to read the weekly batch of Press cuttings, as I do, devoted simply to comments which have been made on this issue, to see how widely the report is being discussed, and from meetings which I have had—not on this issue, but general meetings with trades unions and those representating grammar schools and other interests—I know very well that they are all consulting their individual members and individual schools. The schools, in turn, will be talking to parents, and I have absolutely no doubt in my own mind that when we get to Easter next year there will have been an extremely thorough process of consultation with all opinions, and with all the people concerned, in Northern Ireland; and that, of course, includes those involved in the grammar schools, which the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, particularly mentioned.

The noble Lord asked me about the figure for capital expenditure which was mentioned in the Cowan Report, and which I think is about £3,500,000. I do not have the figure in front of me for the normal annual capital expenditure on education in Northern Ireland, but it is certainly more than that. I believe that the figure is approximately £8 million to £10 million, but I would not be absolutely certain about that. Of course, if—and I stress the word "if"—a decision is taken to introduce comprehensive schooling in Northern Ireland, this is inevitably going to be spread over some years. There is no question of Northern Ireland going comprehensive overnight, or even in a single year. So that the capital expenditure that we are talking about, if the Cowan Report proposals were adopted, would be spread over several years and would not be very significant in terms of total capital expenditure on education in Northern Ireland.

As I said, I do not believe that a decision on this issue can be deferred for ever. All schools in Northern Ireland are inevitably under some cloud of uncertainty while these consultations are going on, and I am sure it is right that once extensive public consultations have been held we should come to a decision on the issue, one way or another. But I have firmly said that I am not going to make up my own mind on the issue until Easter, when I have had a chance to hear what everyone in Northern Ireland has had to say about the matter.

The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, also raised the issue of integrated education, mixed religion education, in Northern Ireland and it might be helpful if I made one further point on the Cowan Report. It has been made clear, but I do not think fully taken on board by many people in Northern Ireland, that the Cowan Report is not even making suggestions for the way that comprehensive education could be organised, were a decision taken to go comprehensive. It is simply an illustration of one of the ways in which this could be done, and the brief that was given to those who drew up this illustration was to use existing buildings and do it with minimal expenditure.

It may well be that many other people will come up with far better schemes, or alternative schemes, for comprehensive education in Northern Ireland, which would take all kinds of other factors into account besides those two which were the very restricted brief on which the Cowan Report was drawn up. I want to make it clear to everyone in Northern Ireland that this is not a closed door. It is an illustration to show how it could be done—there are many other options—and I hope that in the months up to Easter many people will be thinking about that issue, as well as the general principle that we have to decide as to whether or not Northern Ireland should go comprehensive.

So that comprehensive schools, one way or another, need not, in my mind, affect the issue of integrated education. It would depend to some extent on how reorganisation took place. But, more important, the current divided system of education in Northern Ireland is very largely a result of parental choice, and parental choice would be able to be exercised in relation to comprehensive schools just as easily, should parental choice change, as it would in relation to the existing system in Northern Ireland. I took some time over education as it is my own subject, and I apologise for that. But I hope that I have dealt with most of the major issues which the noble Lord and the noble Viscount raised, and I hope that your Lordships will now approve this order.

Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH

My Lords, may I give the noble Lord a Question for Written Answer at a later date, on the financing of Harland and Wolff rather than weary the House over it?

Lord MELCHETT

Certainly, my Lords. I apologise if I did not cover all the points which the noble Viscount raised, but maybe I could either receive a Question for Written Answer from him, or study what he said and write to him about it.

On Question, Motion agreed to.