§ Lord TEVIOTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how they justify more than trebling the cost of birth, marriage and death certificates when they are trying to curb inflation.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the fees paid by the public for birth, death and marriage certificates have been for many years less than the cost of providing the services, the balance of cost remaining a charge on the Exchequer and on local rates. Government financial policy requires the fees to recover the full cost of providing the services, as part of the effort to reduce, wherever possible, expenditure in the public sector. The fees have been increased on only three occasions since they were originally fixed in 1837.
§ Lord TEVIOTMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I say that I am surprised to find him answering this Question although I am delighted that he should do so. First, the noble Lord said that the fees have been increased three times since 1837—I am well aware of that date—and in 1972 they went tip from 40p to 75p. Would the noble Lord please tell the House a little more about why this price has gone up? Is it because of the rent of St. Catherine's House on the corner of Kingsway and the Aldwych, which is a very expensive commercial area, whereas previously its ancestral home was 161 Somerset House, which not only this country but the whole of the English-speaking world respects? That building has now been made the—
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, as the noble Lord will recognise, it is impossible for me to answer quite so detailed a supplementary question as that. However, I will look into the point he has raised and have a word about it with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. The increase in fees in 1972 did not take full account of the cost of providing these services, and it is the view of the present Government that these charges must reflect the full cost of providing the services.
§ Lord TEVIOTMy Lords, is the noble Lord also aware that there has been an increase of 233⅓per cent. between 1972 and 1975, even though the 1972 figure might have been based on 1971, and that the cost of living has not gone up by anything like that amount? Inside St. Catherine's House at the moment is more like a Moroccan market than a Government Department. Could the Minister please see his right honourable friend and perhaps defer the increase until the matter can be looked into more thoroughly and a more suitable location found for this Department?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, as I have already endeavoured to point out, the increase in charges in 1972 did not take account of the full cost of providing these services. It is the view of the Government that they should do so and that is why we have taken this action.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, on the matter of the increased cost of death certificates, is it not bad enough to have to suffer the rising cost of living without having a rise in the cost of dying?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, my noble friend will be reassured to know that the death certificate is issued free of charge to enable social security benefits to be recovered.
Viscount MONCKMy Lords, will the noble Lord inform us whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to increase or decrease the population? 162 Does not he agree that to increase the cost of the birth and marriage licence would decrease the population, but that to increase the cost of the death licence might mean that some of us old fogies would stay on a little longer and thereby increase the population?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the noble Viscount raises such profound and significant issues that I am sure he will realise that it would be imprudent of me to try to answer them this afternoon.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, if I understand the noble Lord aright, the reason for this increase is that in the Government's view the cost must be the actual cost of providing the service. Why should that be so? It is not so with many other services which the Government provide for us.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHNo, my Lords. The view of the Government is that wherever possible this should apply to all charges of this character in the public service. It affects not only the charges to which I have referred this afternoon but also a wide selection of charges affecting other Departments.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, can the Minister say whether the decision to issue free a death certificate applies also to the issue of a birth certificate, should a family be in economic distress and find it difficult to pay the necessary fees?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHYes, my Lords; one free birth certificate is in fact issued at the time of the birth of the child.