FOOTBALL MATCH HOOLIGANISM (Hansard, 22 September 1975)

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)
My Lords, last July, the Working Party on crowd behaviour, chaired by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Sport and Recreation, issued detailed recommendations for preventing, hooliganism both inside and outside football grounds. The need for further action, in the light of some recent and serious incidents, is now under urgent consideration.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, as a small minority are spoiling the enjoyment of football for many thousands, will the Government give full support to measures to stamp out this hooliganism, in particular to the steps which have been taken by British Rail, where the costs eventually fall on the taxpayer? Will the Government also encourage the Sheffield proposal for directed community service for offenders on Saturday afternoons, as well as improving the protection of employees in the transport services?

§ Baroness BIRK
Yes, my Lords; the Government feel that the ban on rail football specials is a very important step. It was taken on 30th August. This means that several clubs are already chartering their own transport and having their own stewards and supervisors. As to the second point raised by the noble Lord, we are entirely in agreement over this matter, particularly the use of both attendance centres and community service orders, which can be much more effective than imposing fines on these hooligans. The Government are now looking into the question of setting up some long-term research into the motivations for this aspect of violence. We are hoping that a meeting will take place within the next two weeks between my Department, the Home Office and the Sports Council.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, is it not important that there should be careful selection of the charges brought when offenders can be identified? For instance, is it not important that, where criminal damage is of a serious kind, or bodily harm of a serious kind is done, the offenders should be brought before a Crown Court, and not simply left to lay magistrates on a summary charge?

§ Baroness BIRK
Yes, my Lords; but, as the noble and learned Lord is aware, this depends on the charge which is brought by the police and to which court the matter goes; and it then depends on how magistrates and judges deal with it.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Baroness, but is it not important, since selection of the charge is the crucial factor (this is the question I 5 was putting to her before), that the prosecuting authorities should select indictable offences where indictable offences have apparently been committed?

§ Baroness BIRK
Yes, my Lords, I think it is. But the matter depends on the defence, the circumstances, and a number of other factors. The Minister for Sport has had an informal talk with the Home Secretary about this matter, and at the moment the general view is that this is a matter for the police and the magistrates. But I am hoping that, when the research and other meetings are set up, they will cover this question. Also involved is the whole question of education authorities and parents; it is a much wider subject than it would be if the matter was kept within its narrow limits.

§ Lord SOPER
My Lords, would not the Minister agree that on the question of hooliganism there is a vestigial if not a causal relationship between the availability of beer cans on such occasions? Are the Government prepared to consider whether there is any way in which there could be a restriction of this opportunity for alcohol to be taken in such quantities as to make hooliganism even more serious than it is at the moment?

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, on the question of alcohol, clubs are being asked to review their arrangements for allowing alcohol on the grounds. The banning of the railway specials will, we hope, aid this. It is very much a central point for the Government. It is understood that the availability of alcohol is very important in this context.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, will not the Minister agree that rather than these adolescents behaving in the way that they do they would be far better employed in kicking about a football than kicking each other and kicking the police? Is it not a fact that the present Administration and previous Administrations have failed to provide adequate facilities for young people to engage in sporting facilities? Is it not a disgrace that this is the only advanced industrial country in the world which has no football training centre and no policy whatever for developing football grounds as community centres in the service of the community of which they are a part? Before spend 6 ing too much time on deciding what you are going to do when you have caught them, why not spend money and energy on providing facilities for the young people of our day?

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, one of the points which came out in the White Paper was the point touched on by my noble friend, that there are not sufficient facilities and that in the very large built-up areas of this overcrowded country there are certainly not the opportunities for young people to participate in sports as they did previously. We feel very strongly that this question of being a spectator rather than participating is also part of the trouble. We are very much aware of this problem and it is not being ignored.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, is it not a fact that a generation ago the Wolfenden Report spelled out in detail what needed to be done but the Government said, "Sorry, we have got no money"? In August of this year the Government produced a White Paper saying exactly the same thing. What needed to be done was spelled out but again the Government said, "Sorry, we have got no money".

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, there is a great shortage of land and this has had to take its place with other priorities. However, this is very much in the Government's mind and I can assure my noble friend that it is not being overlooked.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether, in view of certain disquieting incidents which have been recently reported, it would be of value if some prominent footballers exercised rather more discretion and prudence, and themselves indulged in civilised behaviour?

§ Lord AIREDALE
My Lords, if football clubs can provide stewards and supervisors on the transport which they arrange, can they not also provide stewards and supervisors on the special trains and thus enable British Rail to run excursion trains at a profit?

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, this is a quite different point. The point about clubs arranging the trains is that then they take the responsibility for supervising them. This also relieves the taxpayers. 7 Many of the clubs are also taking responsibility for having stewards in the grounds to try to prevent these incidents. The whole question depends on prevention so far as possible, and also on trying to find out more about the motivations and diverting into more positive outlets the energy that goes into this violence.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON
My Lords, if I may refer to the question asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, when Parliament has prepared Bills to set out summary offences, is it not highly undesirable that temporary indignation should be assuaged by searching the Common Law for obsolete felonies?

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, is criminal damage obsolete and is causing grievous bodily harm obsolete?

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON
My Lords, they have been prepared by Parliament and should not be sidestepped.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)
My Lords, I suspect that a number of noble Lords are turning this Question into a debate. Therefore, may I suggest that we now move to the next Question?