§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now in a position to state what provision is to be made for sufferers from serious industrial lung disease including byssinosis and asbestosis, comparable to that already made of miners' pneumoconiosis.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, the National Coal Board's compensation scheme for miners suffering from pneumoconiosis is unique. It was negotiated with the unions in order to avoid costly and wasteful litigation. The Government gave the National Coal Board financial assistance only because the potential liability in respect of former miners was so great in relation to the present size and financial situation of the industry. All sufferers from respiratory lung disease are, of course, able to apply under the State scheme of National Insurance. The 999 Government have no new plans for special provision for sufferers from these diseases.
§ Lord HALEYes, my Lords, but will the noble Lord say whether it is a fact that this aspect of these diseases has now been transferred to the Minister of Employment? Since we were told that if any scheme was put forward by the employers and the employees of the industry it would receive consideration, does this transfer mean that the Minister who is responsible for dealing with the pneumoconiosis problem is now contemplating initiating discussions, which are extremely difficult? I am told that there is no serious opposition throughout the textile industry to a scheme relating to byssinosis but I have no information whatever about asbestosis, which I am afraid is perhaps a more complicated and indeed a very much more grave problem.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, the coal mining scheme was negotiated between the unions and the employers. But there is nothing to prevent that happening in other industries.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend get in touch with the Railways Board to see whether workers in the railway industry suffering from asbestosis come under an arrangement similar to that of the miners? Is my noble friend aware that a number of cases have now been brought to light and that the Railways Board is trying to do the best it can in its present situation, but lacks the facilities for dealing with its employees in the same way as the National Coal Board deals with its employees in the mining industry?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I say once again that there is nothing whatever to prevent the unions and the employers from formulating a scheme to deal with the position.
BARONESS WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware how grateful I am, as are many other people who know of the disadvantages of pneumoconiosis, for the fact that this scheme has been brought in? I am delighted about this scheme, and so are the miners. We are very grateful for what has happened.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is my noble friend satisfied with the numbers of the Factory Inspectorate, who are responsible for those factories where asbestosis and byssinosis are common?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I understand that there has been some problem in the past in regard to the number of inspectors available for this work, but that is being handled.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I appreciate very deeply what has been done for the miners, as I understood this situation when I was the Member of Parliament for Slough, where there were so many ex-miners. But is my noble friend really saying that, if there are sufferers from lung diseases in other industries, it must be a matter for negotiation between the trade unions and the employers? Admitting the immediate financial difficulties, is it not the long term responsibility of the Government to see that the needs of those who suffer in this way are met?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, in the case of the miners, it was the unions and the employers who negotiated the scheme. The Government made an initial grant for, I think, two reasons: first, there was a backlog of about 40,000 which dated back to the time when the industry was on a much larger scale than it is now; secondly, the Government had to bear in mind that this matter involved an industry and that the scheme would promote good industrial relations, and it was very important to the national economy that that should be done.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, has the noble Lord any figures to indicate the number of extant cases of byssinosis and asbestosis, so that one can see the size of the problem in comparison with the miners' pneumoconiosis?
§ Lord JACQUESYes, my Lords. In the case of pneumoconiosis, the figure—which is issued under the National Insurance scheme—is about 39,000; in the case of byssinosis it is 3,000, and in the case of asbestosis it is about 800.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, does it not follow from what the noble Lord said 1001 that it is, relatively, a small problem with which, at the first convenient moment, the Government might easily find it possible to deal?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, it would be wrong of me not to agree that the problem is very much smaller than that in regard to the miners.
§ Lord MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord, Lord Hale, has devoted some 40 years of his life to calling the attention of successive Governments to this scourge, which affects not only the miners but those in other industries? Will he, therefore, give due weight to the representations that the noble Lord has made?
§ Lord JACQUESCertainly, my Lords.
§ Lord FOOTMy Lords, may I ask the Government whether there is not a particular problem in the case of asbestosis, which arises in this way: that the unfortunate sufferers from asbestosis are people engaged in a variety of different industries—they are not all in one industry, such as the mining industry—and unless the Government take the initiative to try to bring the related unions and employers together, in order to initiate a scheme of the kind which we have had in the mining industry for so long, it may simply goby default because so many different parties are involved? Among other places with which I am concerned are Her Majesty's dockyards, and is the noble Lord aware that the problem of asbestosis is particularly important there?
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, I will take note of what the noble Lord has said.