HL Deb 27 November 1975 vol 366 cc389-91

3.12 p.m.

Baroness SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government why they do not ensure that hospitals provide a nursery for the pre-school children of the staff in order to retain the valuable services of women doctors and nurses.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, the provision of day nurseries for children of National Health Service staff where these are needed is the function of the employing Health Authorities. They have been advised by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services that these facilities can be provided where it can be shown that the high costs involved can be justified by the effect on their problems of recruitment and staff retention. The decision whether or not to provide a day nursery is, therefore, a local one in each case.

Baroness SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, that is rattler a complicated test to apply. Is it not a fact that a number of hospitals have established these nurseries with great success, and is not that the real test? Because of that, should not the Government bring pressure to bear on those local authorities which do not establish them simply because they feel it is not worth spending the money on this service?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that a number of very successful day nurseries have been established by Area Health Authorities. I think I am right in saying that there are something like 86 day nurseries and six play groups. But the acid test must be whether a day nursery in a particular hospital or area is needed in order to persuade staff to join the hospital, or to dissuade hospital staff from leaving. In the circumstances, bearing in mind that most local authorities have a number of day nurseries, I do not think that there can be any other yardstick.

Lord ABERDARE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are considerable complaints in the National Health Service about the need to refer decisions upwards, and that this is a matter which should be taken at the local level? While I sympathise with what is in the noble Baroness's mind, it is important that decisions of this kind should be taken locally and not by the Department.

Baroness SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is his experience, as it is mine, that many local authorities refrain from introducing this kind of service, although it is known by many people to be necessary? Should one leave it to, perhaps, half-a-dozen people on a small sub-committee to decide a matter of such importance?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, it is not within our experience or knowledge that certain areas are refusing to do this. The power that Area Health Authorities have in the setting up of day nurseries was made quite clear as recently as a few months ago. If my noble friend has any information relating to an area, we shall be glad to have it.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the main purpose of day nurseries in hospitals is to persuade nurses who have married and had a family to come back into the Service in areas where they are urgently needed? I am very grateful indeed, may I say, for the magnificent day nursery in the new Queen Mary's Hospital at Sidcup, which has served that very purpose and is proving a very useful adjunct in getting trained nurses to come back into the Service.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, if I may be permitted to say so, nurseries are designed not only to persuade women to come back to nursing but to persuade married women doctors to come back on the medical side; and, where there are difficulties in getting certain civilian staff, to persuade them to come back as well.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, will the noble Lord see, so far as he possibly can, that local democracy is maintained in this and all other such activities? Even if a decision may occasionally be wrong, is it not true that this is democracy and that on occasions one must accept it?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I can only say that the democratic rights of the Area Health Authorities are quite supreme in this regard.