§ 2.43 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the Helsinki agreements, they have made representations to the USSR concerning the landing of tanks, armoured cars, missiles and other arms at Luanda in Angola.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSNo, my Lords; but the Soviet Government can be in no doubt about Her Majesty's Government's strong and publicly expressed views about any external intervention in Angola.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that helpful 268 and robust reply, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government recognise that since 1945 the USSR has so often used détente and other agreements as a method of lulling the democracies into a false sense of security; and are not Russia's actions in promoting and arming Communist forces in Angola and in Portugal, one of our NATO allies, further proof that this pattern still continues? Can Her Majesty's Government assure Parliament that until the Russians' actions match their words there will be no further weakening of the NATO Alliance and no further disarmament by this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can give the assurance that our defence and foreign policy will be geared to the needs of our proper defence and co-operation with our allies in NATO. On the first two matters that the noble Lord raised, he has expressed a point of view, which he shares with a great many other people in this country and in other countries, as to Soviet motivation. As to progress in détente, we have frequently made it clear that we judge that progress by actions rather than words. If I may once more quote the American President's phrase at the signing in Helsinki:
It is not the promises we make in Helsinki but the promises we keep in the future that count".We shall continue to watch the situation with great care, and to remind the Soviet Government and everybody else that détente can be seriously impaired by evidence of unwarranted intervention in the affairs of other countries.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, to return to the original Question, may I ask my noble friend whether or not other countries are involved in supplying arms in Angola, and whether this stricture should not apply equally to all concerned?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, so far as I am given to strictures, they apply to everybody who is guilty and deserving of those strictures.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, would the Minister agree that intervention is not only in contravention of any agreement, which was not legally binding, made at Helsinki, but also is not in accord with the Charter of the United Nations, which is legally binding on all 269 Member-States, and that the interference of Russia in Angola is completely unwarranted?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is completely unwarranted, as would be the intervention of any other State in the internal affairs of Angola, whose future must depend on its own people coming together to decide on a common future.
In regard to intervention, I think I should say this. I address myself once more to my noble friend. We have read the terms of the important, serious speech made by Dr. Kissinger in Detroit two or three days ago, in which he addressed himself to this question of intervention and the grave danger of a kind of competitive escalation in Angola, as we have seen in recent years in other parts of the world. I hope these words will be taken to heart by all concerned.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, can the Minister confirm that several thousand Cuban so-called volunteers have in fact arrived in Luanda?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot confirm that, but I am not in a position to dissent forcefully from the noble Lord.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that there is very keen interest in this matter in this country? I understand we still have diplomatic representatives in Angola. Could he perhaps obtain information from our diplomatic representatives about the arrival in Angola of Russian technicians, Russian forces and massive Cuban forces, and take an opportunity of reporting back to Parliament?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am afraid we have no diplomatic representation at the moment in Angola, at consular or any other level. The House may recall that on July 27th it was decided that in the interests of safety of life we should withdraw our own consular representation and advise all other British nationals to come away from that country; and indeed all but a mere handful—less than 20, I gather—harkened to that very well-based advice. From then until a few weeks ago, in early November, our American friends looked after our interests, such 270 as they were, in Angola; but they, too, have now withdrawn their consular representation in that country. Nor is there an EEC presence at any diplomatic level in the country. However, coming to the second point made by the noble Lord, we are not without means of gathering information now or in the future. We would hope, of course, that as soon as things settle down appreciably in that country we shall resume proper representation and in that way have fuller and more conclusive information as to the situation there.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that, through our representative there, the United Nations will be kept well informed as to the views of Her Majesty's Government on the issue that has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, which seems to have caused a certain amount of consternation throughout the United Kingdom?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend expresses exactly the policy and intentions of Her Majesty's Government.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, in the light of his Answer to the earlier Question of the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, can the noble Lord say on what grounds Her Majesty's Government have decided not to make representations to the Government of the Soviet Union in a matter where, equally important, human life may be at stake?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not know what my noble friend means by "representations". He has distinguished experience of these matters, and he knows that it is wise, in cases affecting individuals, to select occasions and methods of representation as to the best way of helping them, and of avoiding counter-productive results in those cases in those countries.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord said that Her Majesty's Government have information available on matters occurring in the country under discussion, has he then received any representations on the point of view which has been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, or is that so secret that it cannot yet be disclosed by him?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy House I will, as usual, arrange for Lords, I am not quite sure that I follow Statement to be made available in the noble Baroness in her question. I thought I said that while we have no consular or other informal representation in Angola we are not without sources of information. Then I went on to say that we would hope that as soon as things have settled down, appreciably if not completely, we would be able to resume a presence such as would yield clearer and more conclusive information. As to whether we have had representations from any quarter about what is happening there, we are of course in constant discussion with friends and allies about situations of potential danger such as undoubtedly exist in Angola.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that the airlift of refugees from Angola is now complete? Is it not the fact that the RAF and certain British civilian air lines, among others, played a most distinguished role in that evacuation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, they did indeed. As the noble Lord knows, we made available a VC10 to assist the Portuguese authorities to evacuate their own nationals, many of whom were in dreadful danger. In so doing we were able to supplement other means of evacuating our own and other nationals from Angola. I do not know the exact figures, but I would say that the number of British nationals still in Angola is barely 20, if that, and that the number of Europeans still there does not exceed a few score. No doubt those who remained after the warnings given by us and others had very good reasons for staying on, but they were personal reasons arrived at by them against the background of the information and warning we gave.