HL Deb 16 May 1975 vol 360 cc954-8
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements have been made for regular organisation and methods study and monitoring of the administrative structures and operation of the new local authorities created in the United Kingdom following the reorganisation of local and regional Government; and what arrangements have been made for reports and recommendations emerging from such study and monitoring to be made available to Parliament.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, as independent elected bodies, local authorities are responsible for their own internal administration. They have their own central advisory body on management matters which has set up Working Parties to advise authorities on ways and means of monitoring the performance of their new administrative arrangements. More generally, the Department of the Environment has commissioned research into the management systems adopted by the new authorities.

Reports by the Working Parties and the Departments' consultants will be designed primarily to assist local authorities, but copies will be available in the Library.

Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is reason to suppose that Parkinson's Law is applicable not only to sections of private industry but has been known in local government and Central Government? In view of the very large sums of money that are being spent, and arc being provided by the taxpayer as well as by the ratepayer, would my noble friend not agree that it would be good for the public to be reassured, within a reasonable time following the setting up of these bodies, that their establishments were not excessive?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, the new local authorities have, in general, followed the approach to management structure recommended in the Bains Report before the new authorities were set up. As a result of the reorganisation there tend to be fewer chief officers than before in each local authority, and in many cases the practice of appointing deputies has been abandoned. However, the production of larger authorities with bigger case loads has resulted in the establishment of many third-level and fourth-level posts. Local authorities are acutely aware of the costs in the present inflationary situation and are always looking for ways of controlling them. With regard to the point about the Government needing to find out what is going on, the Department have commissioned the Institute of Local Government Studies—an independent body a part of Birmingham University—to carry out research into the management systems of the new authorities.

Lord POPPLEWELL

My Lords, why did not my noble friend have another word with his right honourable friend with a view to taking further action in connection with this matter? Is my noble friend aware that there is a widespread feeling among the populace that there is much wasteful expenditure taking place with this new organisation? For instance, there are as many as 10 or 12 officials attending a meeting where there are only 10 or 12 councillors dealing with housing matters and where common-sense organisation and method would have ensured that one person was able to deal with it. Is my noble friend not aware that this trend seems to be general throughout the country? Will he have another look at the thoroughly bad Bill that is responsible for putting up rates in many areas?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I am aware that there is widespread concern at staffing levels in the reorganised local authorities. However, the position at the present time is far from clear. Over-all staff numbers actually rose slightly less between mid-1973 and mid-1974 than in previous years—a rise of some 3 per cent. compared with 4 per cent. to 5 per cent. in previous years.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that when our organisation and method teams are appointed to investigate local Government expenditure, their reports frequently recommend additional officers being appointed?

Lord BYERS

My Lords, might it not be worth while the Department having a look at the way in which Liverpool City Council tackled this problem, where they have been able to keep down costs?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I think that many people, including the voters of Liverpool, have had mixed feelings about the success of that experiment.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that what has been said about local authorities applies equally to the administrative grade in the reorganised National Health Service, which is causing some of us concern about the welfare of the patients?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, that may be true: but I fear that that is a different Question.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, reverting to the noble Lord's earlier replies in this sequence, can he say what justification there is for these numbers rising at all at the present time?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, staff numbers rise because successive Governments have placed additional burdens on local authorities.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, is that not a process which now should be retarded or reversed?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, this Government have said that, at the present time, in view of the inflationary situation and rising costs, they do not intend to place additional burdens on the local authorities.

Lord POPPLEWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the increase taking place when many of these officers are appointed is not an increase in respect of their job but because they are regraded and the numbers within their purview have increased? Is this not little short of avoiding the Social Contract, because an increase in pure numbers does not necessarily mean an increase in responsibility?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, this is certainly something which we would hope the Institute of Local Government Studies' research will look into and provide us with some answers.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply to my previous supplementary question, may I ask whether the intention he has declared on behalf of Her Majesty's Government is such that the 2,000 new employees expected to be recruited for putting into effect the Land Bill will not now be employed? Is the Bill therefore to be dropped or revised?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I look forward with great anticipation to an interesting debate on that piece of legislation. As the noble Lord knows, the vast resources which will be made available to the people of this country through their local authorities when community ownership of land takes place will enable them to employ the small number of extra people needed to implement that Bill.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, can the noble Lord state from whom the resources will be taken?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, interesting as this discussion is, I think it really does not arise from the Question.

Lord PARGITER

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that the majority of councillors are certainly very careful in expenditure of ratepayers' money and in appointing staff and that this general condemnation is totally unjustified.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I will bear that in mind. I think that the answer which I gave in the earlier part of this series would generally indicate that that was the Government's view.