HL Deb 21 July 1975 vol 363 cc3-6
Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the successful efforts made by them to secure the release of Mr. Hills by the Ugandan Government, what efforts they have made to secure the release by the Rhodesian Government of the three British subjects, John Mutasa, Moven Mahachi and Maurice Nyagumbo, at present on trial for their lives in Rhodesia where Her Majesty's Government have a considerably greater responsibility.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we have repeatedly made clear our views on these detentions to the Rhodesian authorities. In the Government's view all executions in Rhodesia are illegal, and they are particularly repugnant when they are a result of mandatory death sentence provisions. The problem in Rhodesia is, and always has been, that our responsibility for events there is not matched by power to influence them on the ground. The best hope of assisting these people lies in achieving a just settlement of the political and constitutional problems of Rhodesia and our main effort is to this end.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. First, may I ask whether he would agree that these men are not charged with murder, for which a death sentence might be more appropriate? Secondly, is my noble friend aware that some of these men are known to us as men of high character and good record? Thirdly, would he agree that if death sentences are carried out they will exacerbate the position, make guerrilla activity more likely, and cause some prejudice against the Constitutional Conference which all of us are seeking?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord's observations, and in particular with the last part of his supplementary question. Any action of this kind can only exacerbate the situation in Rhodesia and make even more difficult the attainment of a just and durable settlement.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it would be right to understand from his Answer that the trial has occurred, because the impression exists that these individuals, held on criminal charges for assisting terrorism, have not yet come to trial. This is therefore the normal procedure. At the same time, would he say whether it would be rather irregular to equate the detention of an individual on a frivolous charge by an unstable dictator, with these men who have been held on criminal charges, not defined, for assisting terrorism? The Minister will know well the brutal atrocities which are carried out by terrorists against Rhodesians, black and white alike.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I imagine that detention without trial by whomever promoted, would be equally repugnant to us in this country. As to the circumstances of these cases, I can only repeat what I said in reply to my noble friend. Any action such as is possible in these cases, judging from experience of the past—and the not so remote past—could only embitter an already difficult and dangerous situation in Rhodesia.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the charges in this case are not of participating in guerrilla activity? Is he further aware that the charges are only of not reporting to the illegal authorities in Rhodesia the presence of guerrillas in their village? Does the noble Lord regard that as an occasion for a sentence of death?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords. I do not regard any political charge in Rhodesia as an occasion for a sentence of death.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he can make any comment on the statement in the Financial Times on Friday of last week, to the effect that 57 members of ZANU have been detained since March and have not yet come to trial? If he is not able to comment, would he write to me?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

Clearly, my Lords, if I have to consult the Financial Times I must write to the noble Lord.

The Earl of ONSLOW

My Lords, would the Minister agree that if people cannot get what might be regarded as a just settlement in Rhodesia, this will tend to drive them into extremism and violence which everyone in this House must deplore?