§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government with regard to a reported new loan of £10 million to Tanzania (a) what proportion of it will be untied and how it will be policed; and (b) whether the threatened breakdown of the East African Association does not suggest that the position in Tanzania should be defined before further aid is given.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the aid to which the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, refers was offered to Tanzania in 1974. The agreement confirming the terms has recently been signed. Most of the money will be used on British goods and services for approved development projects. The future of the common services of the East African Community is a matter for the three partner States to determine, and we see no reason to delay implementation of our aid agreement with Tanzania.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that to many it seems indecorous to lavish such aid as is being given when we ourselves are having difficulty in funding money even 712 at 12½ per cent., and Government credit is at 14 per cent. to 15 per cent.? Secondly, can the noble Baroness say what is the total amount of money owed by Tanzania for the requisition of British businesses, and also for the land owned by British nationals? Thirdly, can the noble Baroness say why it would appear unreasonable to ask for the privilege of surveillance when so much of the aid given elsewhere, at least in Africa, has been squandered on prestige projects instead of being confined to rewarding internal projects?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, in answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, considering that we are talking about one of the poorest countries in the world, I do not think the aid can be described as lavish.
Secondly, I cannot give him any figure for the compensation, because that is in the process of being evaluated. In 1974 my right honourable friend the previous Minister for Overseas Development had a meeting with the Tanzanian Government and they expressed their willingness to negotiate the evaluation of the businesses and farms about which I think the noble Lord is concerned. That is going on. It can even go to arbitration. They are willing to make compensation. On his third point, I do not think there is any question of anything being squandered in Tanzania. I think mention of policing is a rather unfortunate term, especially as many benefits will flow to this country, because they will be buying goods and services from here.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether General Amin's permission has been obtained? This is an important question because, in so far as this aid involves defence goods a mistaken impression might be given that they are required for a defensive war against General Amin instead of, as, of course, is the case, for an aggressive war against Rhodesia.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, this is, as always, a complicated matter. So far as I know, there is certainly no question of defence aid involved.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I do not want to take issue with the noble Baroness 713 as to what is lavish, but it is a fact that £2,500 million has been provided by the taxpayers in the last decade. Also, may I ask her to amplify her original reply? Of the total given in aid, what proportion of that is tied and what proportion is untied, because in the last five years there has been progressive diminution of the tied aid, which brings British trade, in relation to the untied.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the noble Lord and I have often crossed swords about the principle of aid and I do not think the House would profit by us continuing any further on that matter. As to amplifying my original Answer, I said that most of the money will be used on British goods and services for approved development projects. The only part of the aid which is non-tied will be spent on goods and services in Tanzania. None of the money will be spent outside either Tanzania or the United Kingdom.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister, despite her last reply, whether she would agree that the best principle for granting aid is the need for it and the achievement in meeting that need? Would she not agree that in Tanzania both those requirements are met—the poverty of the people and the quite extraordinary reconstruction of the villages by Julius Nyerree—without any of the prestige projects to which the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, has referred?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend said in the last part of his question. Tanzania is the last country to be criticised for prestige projects. As usual I agree with almost all my noble friend says.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that, if aid is to be measured by necessity, words spoken in this House last week by Lord Soper indicate that there is considerable necessity and need in this country first?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, when we are in economic trouble we hope that our friends in Europe and on the other side of the Atlantic will help us. Tanzania is in economic difficulties and we are here to help them.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, the noble Baroness referred to Tanzania as one of the poorest countries in the world and said, very rightly, that this was a reason for granting aid or loans to that country. That is a very reasonable yardstick. Would a similar yardstick be used, as we are now a participant in the Convention of Lomé, if aid or loans were asked for by Upper Volta, for instance, which is in Central West Africa? It is, I would say, one of the poorest countries in the world. Would such aid be similarly considered?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think the House will agree that that is another question.