PRISON OFFICERS' QUARTERS (Hansard, 21 January 1975)

§ Lord DERWENT
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)
My Lords, some modernisation takes place as part of ordinary maintenance, especially on a change of occupancy. Currently expenditure on staff accommodation is concentrated on the acquisition of additional quarters to meet existing and predicted demand. Nevertheless, in recent years 225 of the least satisfactory quarters in older prisons have been replaced by modern properties.

§ Lord DERWENT
My Lords, would it not be possible to speed up this moder-nisation? At one time it was argued that the older prisons would be rebuilt. As there is no possibility in the foresee-able future of rebuilding the old prisons, could not more money be spent on prison officers' quarters rather than that money should be wasted in other directions? Surely, the Government should look after the welfare of their own employees before anything else.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this Government, like the previous Government, of course attach consider-able importance to this area of public expenditure. Indeed, in the current financial year, expenditure on the purchase of quarters is likely to be about £3.5 million, and expenditure on maintenance at just under £1 million, £900,000 in fact, which I think is a very substantial programme.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, quite apart from the prison officers' quarters, does the noble Lord not realise quite how bad a state our prisons are in and how long 5 this has been a perfect disgrace? I am not trying to make a Party point because successive Governments are, I suppose, equally to blame, but cannot he do some-thing to arouse public opinion concerning the disgraceful condition of some of our prisons; the gross overcrowding, the humiliating and degrading sanitary arrangements, and the fact that this makes a mockery of any attempt at improving penal treatment?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I am sure my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, like his predecessor, would share the views the noble and learned Lord has just expressed. This is a very serious problem, as everybody who has ever held office as Home Secretary has acknowledged. We are pressing ahead as rapidly as we can on the particular point the noble Lord asked about. One other way of dealing with this problem is, of course, to try to take some action to reduce the size of the prison population, so far as this is appropriate. That is why we are proceeding as rapidly as we can with the introduction of community service orders, to give one example, which will, we hope, have just that effect.

§ Lord PANNELL
My Lords, is the Minister aware that when I first represented Leeds, in 1949, there were proposals on foot to rebuild the Armley Prison, which is one of the grimmest edifices in the country, and now that I have retired, 25 years later, we have got no further at all? As a matter of fact, it seems to me that this Government, and all Governments, are only resolved to be irresolute on these matters.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
Well, my Lords, successive Governments have in fact had building programmes of a very significant size. One of the difficulties is that the prison population is constantly expanding.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that if the initiative taken by the Government responsible for introducing the National Health Service Bill, in turning the workhouses of this country into decent accommodation for people in the hospital service, was introduced in this particular case, better accommodation would be available to 6 those who are unfortunate enough to be sent there for a certain period of time?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, the Government will proceed with their expenditure programme as rapidly as possible of course taking account of the present problems created by the economic situation.

§ Lord HARVEY of PRESTBURY
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that most Members in another place recognise the necessity for new prisons, but very few of them want them in their constituencies? Would it not be possible for a Commission—not a Royal Com-mission but some other body—to examine this problem in some depth fairy rapidly, in order to bring about some early improvement?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, in making his first point the noble Lord is perfectly right there is a great deal of opposition to penal establishments on people's doorsteps. This is a problem which faces the present Government, as it faced their predecesors. But I do not think that the appointment of a Commission would resolve this particular problem.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, are we discussing prisons or prison officers' quarters?