§ 3.7 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they support the French-Russian proposal that a summit meeting be held in Helsinki during the first half of 1975 to conclude plans for European security and co-opera-tion.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we continue to hope that the results of the conference will be of sufficient content and value to warrant holding the third stage at the highest level.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that since I tabled this Question the United States of America 7 has endorsed this proposal? May I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government are preparing in a constructive way for proposals which will be considered at this conference for continuing commissions progressively to extend co-operation between East and West Europe?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are naturally thinking constructively about the work of this conference, which is of deep political importance. Her Majesty's Government do not feel that such a third-stage conference would be valid until it had decisions which would justify the calling together of the Heads of State of 35 countries. Would the noble Lord repeat the second point that he made?
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not the case that it is hoped that the Helsinki Conference of Heads of State will be followed by continuing commissions between East and West to extend co-operation?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I apologise to my noble friend for not getting his second question. If the Heads of 35 nations agree on conclusions following upon this conference, then, of course, those conclusions must continue to be—I shall not say policed—furthered within some suitable organisation. But at this moment the form of the follow-up organisation has not yet been decided.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether I am right in supposing from his answers that the Government do not feel that there has been enough progress so far to warrant a Heads of State meeting? If that is the case, would he agree that there is much to be said against having a premature meeting which could become a propaganda exercise?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government.
§ Baroness TWEEDSMUIR of BELHELVIEMy Lords, could the Minister say what particular issues of value and content, as he described it, are outstanding.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, a wide measure of agreement has been reached over the simpler issues, but on 8 certain fundamental issues, such as freedom of movement, no agreement has yet been reached.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not the case that the commissions have now reached agreement on all the major issues, and that the only issue on which there is still difficulty is freedom of move-ment and information? Is it not the case that the Soviet Union has made proposals, including the freedom of newspapers to go from East to West, which make this problem much easier?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, these proposals may have made the problem somewhat easier, but at the moment we are not quite certain that what the Soviet delegation says, when translated into our own terms, achieves the end that we should wish to see.
§ Lord MOLSONMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, referred to the Soviet agreement for newspapers to go from East to West. Are they also agree-able for newspapers to go from West to East?
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is not the Minister aware that the Soviet proposal is that there should be an inter-change of newspapers East to West and West to East?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is one of many proposals. Let us assume that papers pass from the Free World to the Communist societies; what assurance do we have that these papers will reach people whom they might influence?
§ Lord TREVELYANMy Lords, would the Minister agree that it is now desirable for the West to enter into permanent negotiations with the Soviet Union on three levels: the American discussions on strategic arms limitation ; the negotiations begun in Vienna, which may go on for a long time, for a balanced reduction of forces ; and the general discussions on security and co-operation in Europe? Would he agree that, whereas there is no point—and in fact it is very undesirable—in going up to the top level and having a summit conference unless one is really sure one can make substantial and material progress, there is some-thing to be said for at least reconsidering and reopening the proposal which at 9 one time was made by NATO and the Warsaw Pact for the establishment of a permanent organisation to consider, on a continuing basis, security and co-operation in Europe?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I shall bring the noble Lord's comments to the view of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, while I believe that every Member of your Lordships' House would regard the Question put by my noble friend Lord Brockway as well meaning and beneficent in purpose, may I ask my noble friend whether there is any indication on the part of the Russians that they are anxious to promote peace in the world? In the matter of creating another inter-national or semi-international organisation, may I ask what is the United Nations for?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I find myself in some sympathy with the scepticism of my noble friend.