§ 2.41 p.m.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total cost of student grants.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Crowther-Hunt)My Lords, the expenditure on grants for fees and maintenance of students by the Department of Education and Science, the Scottish Education Department, Research Councils and local education authorities for the academic year 1973–74 is provisionally estimated at £185 million.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. May I ask him whether, in view of this staggering sum, there is any possibility that the Government will reconsider abolishing the means test, which I believe does 541 not cost a great amount of money to operate? If, however, they are worrying about where the money might come from, I would point out that a vast amount of expense and unnecessary work could be saved by local authorities if the means test were abolished.
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, I assume that the noble Earl is referring to the parental contribution. The cost of abolishing the parental contribution would be about £65 million in the current year.
§ The EARL of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer, and I realise how difficult it is for the Government to be generous in these very hard times. However, do the Government realise the hardship which the means test bestows upon married students, upon students whose parents' income falls into the low or middle income bracket, and also upon students whose parents refuse to fill in the means test forms?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, on the two questions which the noble Earl has raised, I cannot accept that students endure undue hardship as regards the scales upon which parental and spouses' contributions are assessed. The scales are carefully designed to take into account ability to pay. I shall, of course, be looking at them again during the present review of grants for 1975/76.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, could my noble friend tell me whether this includes grants to married women, and are they equivalent in amount to those received by the single man?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, the figures that I gave certainly included grants to married women. There are certain circumstances in which the grant to a married woman is not quite as great as the grant to a married man. It is one of the anomalies which is being looked at in my review of the situation.
Viscount ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether our students are better supported than students in other European Economic Community countries?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, my information is that our students are far, far better supported than most students anywhere else in the world.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that he has no evidence of any hardship among students. I am wondering whether the noble Lord would reconsider his reply, in the light of the fact that many parents who have contributions assessed against them do not make those payments to their children, with the result that they suffer very serious hardship at university?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, I hope I did not say that they are suffering no hardship. I hope that I used the words "undue hardship". I am aware that some students have financial difficulties as a result of refusal by their parents to pay in full the assessed contributions. Indeed, local education authorities have been asked to notify parents direct of the amount of their contribution, and also to inform them that if they do not pay those contributions in full the students may suffer hardship.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, in view of his very sweeping statement about students in EEC countries, would the Minister be prepared to give figures of grants to students both here and in other EEC countries, and also to give figures of how many students in each country have accessibility to universities?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, that is a different question. However, if the noble Baroness will put it down in writing I will see whether I can get the appropriate information.
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, in regard to student grants in this country, would the noble Lord agree that the policy which successive Governments have endorsed has resulted in a far higher proportion of the children of manual workers going to universities in this country than in any other EEC country? Would he also agree that the policy of maintaining the basic grant as high as possible, without regard to the abolition of any so-called means test, has resulted in the children of the impoverished middle-classes, such as the children of the clergy, being able to go to universities?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, I should not like to be drawn too much this afternoon into the matter of international comparisons, although I dare say that what the noble Lord has said is correct. It is the policy of this Government, as it has been of successive Governments, to make the grant as high as possible to prevent students who are attending full-time eduction from suffering undue hardship.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the benefit to the community, throughout the whole working life of someone who has been trained in a university, is an extremely good return to the country for this expenditure?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTYes, my Lords.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, when my noble friend considers the grant for next year, will he take into account the fact that rents—both those payable to universities and those payable to the keepers of lodging houses—are about to be increased and are likely to be increased still further, particularly because of the increasing rates of interest?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, in considering the grant rates for the next academic year, all aspects of the cost of living will be taken into account.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, when my noble friend says that our students are better supported than any in the world, does he mean the world or does he mean the Western world?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, I said that I did not want to be drawn too much into international comparisons this afternoon, which are rather outside the framework of the Question. But when I referred to the world, I really meant the Western world.
§ Lord SNOWMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in fact the comparison would be just as favourable in the Eastern world?