§ 2.57 p.m.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, I beg to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and when the noble Lord replies would he be kind enough to say whether he is replying honestly or dishonestly?
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the comparable figures for the years 1973 and 1974 for the visible trade balances between the United Kingdom and the 8 EEC countries.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said, statistics can mean anything. Perhaps the noble Lord can decline the word "lies"—lies, damned lies and statistics—but I think this is a case in point.
Now as to the Question: the visible deficit with the EEC is provisionally estimated at £2,035 million in 1974, compared with £1,131 million in 1973.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, in view of the fact that the deficit has doubled in 547 the course of the year, would my noble friend take note of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, when replying on 30th January to much the same Question, said that the difference was only marginal? If it was the view of the Government that the difference was marginal, then would the noble Lord be kind enough to tell us when it ceased to be marginal?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I noted that the noble Lord had intervened on the occasion of a similar Question towards the end of January, but I do not think I used the word "marginal". I said that the deficit was provisionally estimated at £2,035 million compared with £1,131 million. That is the Answer to the Question.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that having regard to the fact that these imports from EEC countries are mainly of manufactured goods and not raw materials, the position is really rather serious?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, in point of fact that is not the case. One of the main changes in the shift of the balance is on the imports of food. Food has come into this country to an increasing degree from the Common Market. To give some figures in this limited area, the deficit on dairy produce has increased by £140 million in the two years, and on meat by £90 million. That means we are buying £230 million more in terms of food in this one year. In fact the deficit arises to a great degree from the import of dairy produce, cereals and meat.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, is it not a fact that the food imported from the Common Market countries was at a very much lower rate than it would have been had it been bought from the rest of the world?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, certain foods were cheaper, certain foods were more expensive; but on balance at the moment the advantages on purchasing are with the Common Market.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the substantial increase in the deficit in the course of a year or a year and a half could be 548 regarded as one of the benefits deriving from the Treaty of Accession; and can we obtain any estimate of what the deficit is likely to be in the course, of, say eight years?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, while I will not admit to the possession of a crystal ball, I will give one figure which will be of help. If we look at the balance of trade with the EEC of the 8 we see that the proportion of the deficit was as follows: in 1972 the deficit with the EEC was 76 per cent, of our total; in 1973 it was 48 per cent., and in 1974 it was 40 per cent. The proportion is moving in the right direction. Within a few years—and I refuse to be tied to a specific year—the position will become very much more favourable to us. Noble Lords must remember that trade has to adjust itself, and it does not adjust itself from weekend to weekend.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is my noble friend not aware that on the Third Reading of the European Communities Bill, pleas were made to the then Conservative Government that this House should exercise its historic duty and delay the passing of the Bill so that the British people could be given an opportunity of taking their decision in fulfilment of the promise of the then Prime Minister, the right honourable gentleman, Mr. Heath, that we would enter the Common Market only with the consent of the general public? Does not my noble friend realise that he has answered the Question honestly, because he has revealed the case against the Common Market?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not think this Government are in any way answerable for the activities and judgments of the previous Administration. Therefore I think that the question being put by my noble friend Lord Wigg to my other noble friend is not one to which he ought to seek an answer.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, I quite understand that my noble friend the Leader of the House should try to protect his noble friend. I am generous and I understand thoroughly my noble friend's desire to protect his noble friend; but when his noble friend uses the crystal ball, which involves a matter of pure conjecture, I am entitled to use not a crystal ball, but the cold water of reality.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, at this moment all my noble friend Lord Wigg is entitled to do is to keep within the Rules of this House and of Question Time. I am not: seeking to protect my noble friend, but to protect the House, on which all our rights depend.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, I must again congratulate my noble friend on his desire to protect the House because it seems to vary on occasions!
§ Several Noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Wigg is stretching the patience of your Lordships' House, if not mine, and mine is a long one.
§ Several Noble Lords: Oh!
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, this is a matter which obviously will have to be debated in the near future. This is a subject which should be raised as a matter for debate, and not raised during Question Time, which my noble friend is doing.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, I am quite willing to defer to my noble friend the Leader of the House and leave the matter to a debate. But I must again point out to him that in the application of a Rule—
§ Several Noble Lords: Order!
§ Several Noble Lords: Question!
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I on behalf of the House and from these Benches support the noble Lord the Leader of the House in the action which he has taken, and in stressing that the Rules of this House must be upheld in the interests of every one of us.