§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether facilities could be made available for a few Members of this House who are interested in Defence to meet NATO representatives with the object of obtaining information on defence against possible aggression.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, if the noble Lord would care to write to me with the names of those who would like to visit Brussels to meet NATO representatives, and a broad idea of the dates he has in mind, I will make every effort to see what can be arranged.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I am very grateful for that satisfactory Answer so far as it goes. But in view of the fact that I may have some difficulty in organising this, is it not possible to so arrange it that any noble Lord who cares to apply could do so either to my noble friend or to myself; and if a submission is made to me I could transfer it to my noble friend? Could that not be arranged?
Lord WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, I have only one caveat to make: this will cost money. If the noble Lord could keep his troop of friends to a small number we could be more likely to get a really satisfactory visit.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I note the advice of my noble friend, but I cannot understand why it should cost money. I do not suggest that we should go to Headquarters in Paris or to any part of Europe, but that we might perhaps be able to meet some military superiors in London. Obviously this would not involve a very large number; but only those who are intensely interested in the subject of standardisation, the use of proper weapons, strategy and so on.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I say to the noble Lord that the advice I have is that a visit to Brussels would be the most valuable, because very often it is not the "top brass" but the middle levels who can give the sort of details which my noble friend might wish to have. If he would care to communicate with me I shall do my best to make satisfactory arrangements.
§ Lord BALNIELMy Lords, I agree that it is desirable that a few Members of the House should have the opportunity of meeting representatives of NATO, but will the noble Lord take this opportunity of informing the whole House, and indeed another place, as to the truth of the rumours that there are further defence cuts coming? Would not the noble Lord recollect that the over-whelming body of opinion expressed in the last Defence debate was that we had already reached a limit of defence cuts?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another Question, and I thought that I covered it very fully in the Defence debate last week.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that it is extremely important that there should be a proper flow of communication between NATO and Parliament? Would he not agree also that at the present time there is still amazing ignorance inside Parliament about the proper function of NATO; and that the Question put by my noble friend and the Answer given on behalf of the Government would, if carried still further, help enormously to improve these relations?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, if the offer that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made is treated temperately and sensibly, I think that much good can come from it in the area involved.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that perhaps the explanation by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, of what was behind this Question does not fit into what I would call the Parliamentary level of responsibility? While weapons and all that sort of thing is of interest to those interested in that aspect of the matter, Parliament's responsibility is to see that 752 our contribution to defence under NATO is correct. Surely the point made by my noble friend Lord Balniel is the one that ought to be concerning Parliamentarians? Are we playing our part properly according to the regulations and promises we made in the past?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the regulations made in the past have not quite covered what my noble friend Lord Shinwell has wanted. As your Lordships know, we have regular visits; I have myself been responsible for organising them. But in my view your Lordships' House has not been represented to the same degree as has another place, and perhaps we have an expertise here which we should like to keep up to date.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I can give an assurance that if I happen to meet any of the generals and air marshals I shall treat them in precisely the same fashion as I did when I was at the War Office and the Ministry of Defence? I shall "talk turkey" to them—and no nonsense.
Viscount ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, if the vast mountain of noble Lords who wish to know something more about this subject was too large to go to Mohammed, would it be possible to persuade Mohammed to come here and address us?