§ Lord GAINFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is being taken to ensure that the academic and other qualifications of United Kingdom technicians in the construction and engineering industries will be generally accepted by the European Economic Community.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, the Treaty of Rome provides for the adoption of directives designed to facilitate the free movement of self-employed persons. The Commission has accordingly proposed a number of directives for the mutual recognition of qualifications and other related matters. In the construction and engineering field directives covering architecture and engineering activities generally have been proposed. The Commission's existing draft directive for engineering activities covers the technician level, but no discussions have taken place since the accession of the United Kingdom to the Community, and the directive is likely to be substantially modified before discussions get under way. The draft architectural directive covers the professional level only. Discussions are well advanced, although there remain some problems to be resolved.
§ Lord GAINFORDMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that encouraging reply. In view of their importance in industry, can the technician, man or woman, who, through the working force, 472 translates policy into fact, be assured of full recognition in the European Community, particularly in view of the possibility of future redundancies in industry in this country?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, on the point about technicians, as I pointed out, the directives will need to be extensively rewritten. At the moment a questionnaire has been addressed to Member-States to find out what controls exist on these activities. So far as employment is concerned, the biggest problem with access is really with the self-employed, and professional people such as architects. So far we have had no complaints regarding employees.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, can we be assured that no bar will be placed on such people coming from, say, polytechnics, and that the restrictions will not apply to them and be limited to university graduates?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, so far as I know, there is no such restriction, and at the moment the decision whether or not they accept the qualifications is one for prospective employers. As I have just said, we are not aware of any problems at the moment.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm that these draft directives are still necessary, in view of certain cases which have come before the European Court which decided that Article 48 and Article 52 of the Treaty were directly applicable? Is it still necessary to have directives for the architectural, medical and engineering professions? Could the noble Baroness please encourage the Education Minister, who will be attending the Education Ministers meeting in December, to apply particular pressure in the action programme with regard to the mutual recognition of diplomas throughout the Community? This seems to be the area which is so difficult for those who wish to move from one part of the EEC to another.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, to answer the noble Baroness's first point, this is a difficult field where there are many levels of qualifications and differences of practice between the Member-States. I cannot forecast whether the Commission will come forward with fresh proposals, or indeed, following the line of thought 473 of the noble Baroness, whether it will find it necessary to do so. As for the last part of her question, I shall look carefully at Hansard and pass on her remarks to my right honourable friend.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that one of the greatest hurdles that the EEC will have to get over is the movement of labour from one country to another? Is she further aware that one particular movement of labour, from Italy to the British mining industry, was not met with great favour, but was ostracised in the beginning; and that was because when the Italian miners were working side by side with a British miner, who has to look after his own safety, a problem was created? Will the noble Baroness agree that, even in the basic industries here, different forms of language raise one problem that will have to be taken into consideration in the transfer of labour from one country to another?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, of course, my noble friend is right; there are a number of problems. But when considering the very great problems, I should have thought that many of the solutions have been very well arrived at and a great many problems have been ironed out. I do not think that his point regarding the mining industry is quite within the terms of this Question, which deals specifically with engineering technicians.