HL Deb 02 December 1975 vol 366 cc474-7
Lord DENHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask the Leader of the House whether he will take urgent steps to ensure that the Report of the Committee on Cruelty to Wild Animals (Cmd. 8266), which is now out of print, is again made available to Parliament, in view of its relevance to the Hare Coursing Bill, now before this House.

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)

My Lords, this Report was published in 1951 and is now out of print. It would not be economic to reprint. However, a copy is available in the Library. It is a long Report, but I will certainly arrange for copies of parts of the Report which are relevant to hare coursing to be put in the Printed Paper Office.

Lord DENHAM

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he has said. Is he aware that the parts of the Report which are relevant to hare coursing are of not much use without the general remarks at the beginning of the Report—coming to 146 paragraphs—which have to be taken in conjunction with the paragraphs on hare coursing?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord's difficulty, but at this time when we need to take cost into account, perhaps he will appreciate that, if we were to reprint 200 copies, the approximate cost would be £470, and if we were to Xerox 200 sets the price would be about £140. I have had to take this point into account. If the noble Lord would draw my attention to those parts of the Report—apart from the 10 pages which deal specifically with hare coursing—which he thinks should be available to Members of your Lordships' House, then I shall certainly see that they are made available. If the noble Lord cares to consult with me about the matter, I shall be happy to seek to meet his difficulty.

Lord PANNELL

My Lords, as one who has read the Report and still has his copy of it, may I suggest to the noble Lord the Leader of the House that he should not have it emasculated. It stands up as a work of literature—

Several Noble Lords: Question!

Lord PANNELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that this Report stands up as a work of literature and that it makes the point that the British suffer from a Brumas mentality, in that they are all in favour of furry and fluffy things but do not care what cruelty they impose on other animals?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, I did not want to get into the merits of the debate on hare coursing; we had a debate some weeks ago and I am anticipating one very shortly. I was seeking to deal with the Question which the noble Lord, Lord Denham, put to me. The Report is 120 pages in length and much of it deals over a wide area with the control of animals and the suffering of animals. I do not think that that is particularly relevant to the subject which we will have under discussion. However, as the noble Lord feels that certain other parts of the Report might be useful, I am certainly willing to consult with him, look into the matter and, if the noble Lord feels that it is right and if I agree with him, I will see that they are made available. I hope, however, that noble Lords will agree that at this moment we should take into account the cost of doing this, particularly when it may not be all that necessary for the purposes of the debate.

Lord DENHAM

My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House and I should certainly like to consult with him on these points. Is he aware that I quite see his point about the cost of republishing this Report? On the other hand, is he aware that the Hare Coursing Bill will prohibit the recreation of a large number of people, and indeed the livelihood of some others, and that this, therefore, should be taken into account as against the cost?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, there is a full copy of the Report available in the Library and it is available to any noble Lord who wishes to study it. I propose to have Xeroxed and to make available in the Printed Paper Office pages directly concerned with hare coursing, but I repeat that a full copy of the Report is available in the Library.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are many of us who feel that the great expense of reintroducing the Bill is highly unnecessary and who also feel that, since the Leader of the House in another place has said that this is only the initial stage before the introduction or a number of other Bills, surely the one authoritative document on the whole subject should be made generally available if this matter is to be thrown open again by new legislation?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, as I just said, a copy of the full Report is available in the Library. I was seeking to meet the wishes of the noble Lord, Lord Denham, and, I suspect, the House, to have immediately available in the Printed Paper Office those pages that arc relevant to hare coursing. I have undertaken to consult with the noble Lord, Lord Denham—who, I know, has a special interest in this matter—as to what other parts he would like made available in Xeroxed form. The Library is always open to all noble Lords and a copy of the Report has been placed there. If noble Lords wish to consult it, I do not think there will be any difficulty.

Earl ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, may I say that I hope the Leader of the House will ensure that that copy of the Report remains in the Library and is not borrowed and removed from the Library by any Member of your Lordships' House, for then it will not be available to the whole House.

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, it is not for me to say what noble Lords shall do in the Library or what they shall take out of the Library, but I have sought to ensure that the document is readily available. Since the noble Earl has grave suspicions about other noble Lords, I will see that the Librarian ties it down.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, while we are on the question of cost, may I ask whether the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, can tell us the cost of publishing the 28 Bills mentioned in the Queen's Speech, most of which we think are totally irrelevant to the present economic situation?

Lord SHEPHERD

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord is entirely relevant to the Question on the Order Paper.