§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Department of Health and Social Security provided a sum of around £1,000 for some juvenile boys to be housed at hostels presided over by Mr. Roger Gleaves and whether the Department had inquired into the character of Mr. Gleaves prior to sending them there.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, no grant of any kind has been paid to the organisation under discussion, but payments for supplementary benefit have been made for individual claimants aged 16 or over to enable them to meet the charge for accommodation in homes associated with Mr. Gleaves. Most of these people were already living in the homes when they claimed benefit. Local social security officers do not direct homeless claimants to particular addresses.
§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. May I ask whether he does not think it is the duty of the Department of Health and Social Security to concern themselves with what type of homes these people are living in and whether the homes are being properly conducted?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot accept what the noble Lord has said. I do not think that this is a duty on the part of the Department of Health and Social Security, nor do I think it should be. Their responsibilities are clearly defined by a number of Acts of Parliament. Their particular function is 1309 to relieve stress and to provide a person with the means of living, and it does not go beyond that. If a person happens to be in a home or hostel, he can be helped by what is called the "voucher scheme", where the claimant gets a certain amount of pocket money each week and the hostel gets the amount he claims within the terms of the Supplementary Benefit Commission. I do not think it would be reasonable to expect the Department to make the inquiries that the noble Lord has suggested, or even to carry out inspections.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, I ask this question out of curiosity. Has the noble Lord any information as to how this person got away with it for so long, and on such a big scale?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that would need a long answer. I can only say that persons who are setting up homes and hostels for young people are obliged to register them with the Secretary of State for Social Services, but as Mr. Gleaves decided to offer facilities not only for young people but over a very wide age range he was not required to register. That may well be a weakness that has to be rectified in the not too distant future. This is just one of the difficulties.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would consider calling together the various representatives of these organisations which provide hostels? I am interested in, for instance, the London Centre, which provides hostels for girls as well as boys, and I think there is already a need for co-ordination in their work.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments. Immediately this situation came to light, the Department of Health and Social Security, the Home Office, representatives of the voluntary organisations and representatives of the London Boroughs Association, the municipal boroughs, met and formed a committee. They now meet regularly to consider every aspect that has emerged from this situation.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I thought I said that it did. If I did not, I say it now.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, could not a closer scrutiny be exercised in cases where hostels are run by people with a previous criminal record?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, there is some difficulty in that respect. At one period, the Charity Commissioners had powers to take some action in a case which involved a person who had a criminal record, but this power was removed by an Act of Parliament which was passed in 1967. As a result, notwithstanding his previous conviction, a person could continue to register a charity.
§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, after what has been said, does the noble Lord not think, quite honestly, that it is a ridiculous state of affairs which must be put to rights immediately?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this is the whole purpose of having this ad hoc committee. May I give the House some further information? Under the Charities Act 1960, the Commissioners had power to remove from office any trustee who had been convicted of a felony, and that power was removed by the Criminal Law Reform Act 1967. But I think we are coming to grips with this problem.