§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to prevent bogus charities from operating.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, registration of an organisation by the Charity Commissioners does not indicate that they have approved the organisation or the persons who will run it. The Commissioners have no power to refuse registration on any grounds other than that the trusts declared in the organisation's governing instrument are not charitable in law. The Commissioners have power under Section 6 of the Charities Act to institute an inquiry into the affairs of any charity other than an exempt charity. The investigation of suspected criminal activity is, as your Lordships will appreciate, a matter for the police.
§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for that Answer. Would he agree with me that the form which has to be filled in to register a charity with the Charity Commissioners does not adequately serve the purpose and, furthermore, that the Charities Act 1960 needs immediate amendment? Is the noble Lord aware that loopholes which exist have enabled this evil man Roger Gleaves to operate six hostels under his own name, or under the name of the "Count de Giglio"?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have some sympathy with what the noble Lord said. I am sure that the noble Lord, as well as your Lordships, will be interested to know that a commit. 1306 tee has been set up by the National Council of Social Services, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman. The Committee is at present considering various aspects of charity law and is expected to make a report at the end of the year. The Education, Arts and Home Office Sub-Committee of the House of Commons Expenditure Committee is also inquiring into the work of the Charity Commission. I am not familiar with the form to which the noble Lord refers, but, with great respect, I suggest that he directs his comments and observations to the Goodman Committee. I am sure that that committee would be glad to have his comments on this matter.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, has my noble friend seen the television exhibition of what happened? In view of the horrific nature of what had been going on for a considerable time, will my noble friend see to it that the committee meets and gives its decision as speedily as possible so that something effective can be done? If my noble friend has not seen the television programme, perhaps he will forgive me if I suggest that he arranges to see it, and then he will, I think, come to the same conclusion as have all of us who have already seen it.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the question put by my noble friend is probably more applicable to the next Question. We are alive to the situation, and perhaps there is no need for me to say more at this stage.
§ The Lord Bishop of SOUTHWARKMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that charities which may be bogus sometimes get support which they might not otherwise get if their prospectuses did not have the words, "the Reverend" in front of the names of various people who are said to be the president, vice-president or organiser? Are Her Majesty's Government aware that there is apparently no rule in this country to prevent any man or woman putting the words, "the Reverend" in front of their names? My noble friend Lady Summer-skill could call herself a Bishop and roam the streets with a cloak and mitre—
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, the right reverend Prelate need have no fear, I am not tempted for one moment.
§ The Lord Bishop of SOUTHWARKBut seriously, my Lords, are the Government aware of this fact?—because it is in my judgment, and I am sure in the judgment of many of us, a very serious matter. Anyone may call himself, "the Reverend" or even "the reverend doctor". I would ask Her Majesty's Government to look at this matter and consider the possibility of all clergymen, including those in the Established Church who call themselves "the Reverend", being registered, perhaps with the Charity Commissioners, so that people may be able to make inquiries about all those who have this prefix to their names.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the right reverend Prelate has raised another matter entirely. I will take note of what he said. My only comment is that it might be good if people who are highly placed in the community did not associate themselves with certain charities unless they are satisfied that they are bona fide charities.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is the noble friend aware that at the present time almost any crook can get himself, or a body which he organises, registered as a charity? Would it not be proper for the Charity Commissioners to be told that, when an application is made for registration as a charity, they should cause inquiries to be made by the local police about the promoter?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot add anything to what I have already said namely, that there is a committee inquiring into the whole field. I think that we ought to wait until it publishes a report, which is due certainly by the end of this year.
§ Lord VIVIANMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his last answer to me. In view of the fact that he was very courteous to me last Thursday and gave me a few minutes of his time to discuss matters, may I meet him after Question Time, or at any time suitable to him, to show him some documents that I have?
§ Lords WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords. I am always prepared to see Members of your Lordships' House.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, will my noble friend consider this 1308 point? Would not the public be safeguarded if the officials of a charity were appointed by an independent authority, and not by the organiser of the charity?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend that this is a matter that needs to be looked at and perhaps I will assume some responsibility for letting the Goodman Committee know what has transpired in your Lordships' House today.