HL Deb 30 April 1975 vol 359 cc1243-6
Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can give an assurance that their representatives in NATO will oppose any proposal that the United States Department of Defence should increase the stockpiles of chemical weapons delivered to NATO, including the new and deadly nervegas "binary munition".

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is not a matter for NATO. If there are any stockpiles of chemical weapons in Europe, they will be the subject of bilateral arrangements between the countries concerned.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Has the noble Lord's attention been drawn to the report in The Times and other newspapers, that the United States of America is proposing to make contributions of its stockpiles of these chemical weapons to NATO, and that the Pentagon has only said that it is not proposing to do this at present?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, since the noble Lord is quoting from newspapers, may I say that what I understand from the newspapers is that Congress has not passed the funds for this project.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, while appreciating that fact, would the Minister agree that the production of these weapons is seriously affecting the negotiations for outlawing chemical weapons altogether?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

No, my Lords.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this is more or less a repetition of what many of us from another place have heard regarding these weapons? Once again the subject is rearing its ugly head, and there is something to be said for the Question tabled by my noble friend. It is certainly hoped that these weapons will never be stockpiled.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is the hope of all of us.

Lord CHALFONT

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not good enough to say, "No" in reply to the question, "Is the noble Lord aware that stockpiling will affect the negotiations for outlawing chemical weapons?"? May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that it is the view of most people concerned that this stockpiling makes it much more difficult to arrive at a convention banning chemical weapons, on the lines of the one banning biological weapons in which Her Majesty's Government played such a significant part?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, at this moment it is a hypothetical stockpile of a hypothetical weapon.

Lord CHALFONT

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not hypothetical? Stockpiles of these weapons are known to exist. They are known to exist in Europe. Is the noble Lord aware that this is not a hypothetical question? May I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government have any plans for making representations to the Government of the United States about this subject?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the noble Lord should read the Question. I am not talking about chemical weapons —they exist. I am talking about the "binary munition".

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this munition is now being produced in the United States of America? It is not the case that it is a hypothetical weapon. Surely, when he is giving answers from the Dispatch Box, he should be acquainted with the facts of the situation.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I have stated the facts. Congress has not yet voted money for this project. I am sorry, but that is the case. I am also sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord in his indignation any further. May I also draw to his attention the fact that President Ford recently signed the instrument of ratification for the Geneva Gas Protocol of 1925. Surely this is a positive action for the President of the United States which exists, and not the hypothetical stockpile which worries the noble Lord.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, will my noble friend agree that it would be a dangerous procedure if we were guided at all times by what appears in the newspapers? Also, is it not true to state that my noble friend receives his advice through Her Majesty's Government and their plenipotentaries in regard to these issues, so he is in a better position to give Answers to Questions that appear on the Order Paper than noble Lords in various parts of the House?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend.

Lord CHALFONT

My Lords, I am reluctant to prolong this exchange, but may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that "binary munitions" are not gas weapons? They are a form of projectile in two halves which are sometimes used to carry chemical agents. Is the noble Lord further aware that stockpiles of these have existed in Europe for some time? If Her Majesty's Government are not aware of that, would they agree to make application to the United Nations which will give them full details of the stockpile?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, all the evidence I have is that these weapons, although potentially in existence, are not yet funded by Congress. If Congress has not funded them, then who has?