§ 2.42 p.m.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any progress has been made at the resumed United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea in Geneva and what policy initiatives have been taken by Her Majesty's Government at this Conference.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, so far most discussion has been in informal groups but most delegations are entering into genuine negotiations. We believe that there is good prospect of agreement at least in principle on the main issues by the end of the session. The British delegation has co-sponsored a set of draft articles on marine pollution.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, I would ask him whether the Government realise the great urgency and importance of reaching international agreement on the exploitation and conservation of the re- 80 sources of the oceans and the seabed before international anarchy breaks out and there is a "free-for-all". How do the Government intend to police our 200-mile exclusive economic zone and enforce the vastly increased responsibilities and obligations that we shall get therein?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I very much welcome the first point made by the noble Earl in his supplementary question; that is to say that it is very urgent indeed that this Conference should succeed, since otherwise anarchy may prevail in the seas of the world, and indeed damage not only national economies but also international relations. On the second point, about policing the good order in a 200-mile economic zone, we believe we already have resources in manpower and techniques to do this. We shall consider carefully how far we need to increase either or both.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that Her Majesty's Government have now modified their previous position which would have allowed the international seabed authority to license activities? Have they not now agreed to the proposal that there should be a joint venture with the multiple companies and States which are carrying this out, with the revenue being distributed so that the landlocked countries can benefit from it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, both the Government and the Conference have not come to final conclusions about the structure and administration of the international seabed authority which we seek, but the ideas which the noble Lord has presented are very much in our minds. Subject to certain negotiations, I believe that this will be the general picture which will emerge at the end of these negotiations.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government make quite certain that the fishermen of the South-West are represented, or at least that their views are represented, at this Conference, as it is most important that the Russian and Eastern bloc fishing fleets do not scrape dry of fish the conservation areas of the Channel?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, conservation and the protection of legitimate interests are very much part of the Conference which is now proceeding. Our own interests, both managerial and through the trade unions, are fully canvassed before our delegation expresses an opinion or urges a point of view in the Conference.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, as long ago as 1971 the United Nations reached general agreement that the exploitation of the resources of the seabed should be in the hands of an international authority for the benefit of all mankind. Bearing in mind the long delays which have occurred in putting this principle into practice, would it not be a good idea if Her Majesty's Government were to propose that under the law of all nations belonging to the United Nations a moratorium should be imposed, so as to prevent individual enterprises from beginning to exploit the resources of the ocean bed at the expense of the human race by using up those resources before any agreement has been reached?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should very much like to look at the proposal which the noble Lord has made about preventing a preemption of the work of a future international authority which would exploit the seabed under the high seas for the general benefit of mankind. It is an idea which many people have canvassed in the past and its utility is no less today. No doubt this Conference will be looking at the idea. I myself shall follow it up, and perhaps I may let the noble Lord know how this particular point is proceeding.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, in view of the fact that, as my noble friend has said, the Government intend to take the initiative in this matter, will he draw the attention of the Department to the report on 15 commodities which has been drawn up by the Commodities Research Unit at Gower Street which deals with the vital problem of raw materials? Will he also try to obtain information from the Geological Survey Department about the recent oceanographical survey of the Pacific Ocean, which has been surveyed from the Bering Straits down to the Falkland Isles and across to New Zealand and Australia, in 82 which the reserves of gold, titanium, tin and other materials is allegedly much greater than in the whole of South-East Asia?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, after consulting the British Encyclopaedia I will do my best to help my noble friend!
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, as the Government have apparently recommended at the Conference that coastal States should have the right to prosecute shipowners rather than flag States for pollution offences, have the Government any workable proposals for applying this recommendation, bearing in mind the difficulties of obtaining evidence and of inspecting genuine ships' records?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as the noble Lord has said, our present posture is to place the right of prosecution with the coastal States. Nevertheless, we are examining the position of the flag States and the port States in relation to incidents of this kind. It is a little early finally to decide where the initiative for prosecution will eventually rest.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is not our very experienced representative at the Conference on the Law of the Sea, Sir Roger Jackling, seized and aware of every problem which has been raised this afternoon in the House?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am quite certain that this is so.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, where inshore fishing is concerned, will Her Majesty's Government take a strong line about the use of heavy beam trawlers since it has quite clearly been proved that they do immense damage to breeding stocks of flat fish and that there are very strong feelings about them by British inshore fishermen? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether the European Economic Community countries have done their best to co-ordinate their attitude to the main questions which arise in this Conference.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the answer to the first question is that we are fully aware of the importance of the technical point raised by the noble Lord. As to cohesion among 83 European States, this is proceeding properly and substantially. Additionally, we have been able to co-sponsor, not only with Western friends and allies but also with some Eastern European States. very useful draft articles on pollution. In so far as both sides join in the decisions in this Conference so much the better.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, since the noble Lord's right honourable friend said in Geneva on the 3rd of this month that the Government are willing to share the wealth from the minerals extracted from the area between the outer limit of the EEZ and the outer limit of the Continental margin, by what international convention or international law do the Government lay claim to the right to extract minerals from the Continental margin?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my right honourable friend said that he would consider any idea that suggested, after asserting the economic zone up to 200 miles, that between that and the outer edge of the Continental margin there might be a scheme for apportioning part of the revenue of exploitation in that second area for international purposes. The text of the speech made it quite clear that we stand ready to consider proposals of this sort. As to what will enable us to do this, I think that will emerge during any negotiations which might lead to the implementation of such an idea.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that the proposal is that the present conference should be followed by another next year, at which the necessary convention will be adopted?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, generally that is the hope. We hope to have agreements at least in principle on the main issues during the present session in Geneva, and to have completed a convention covering all points some time next year.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, the noble Lord will recall that on 19th March we were discussing the neutrality of the Indian Ocean. In view of the concern and interest of the Malagasy and African coastal States on the Indian Ocean, can the noble Lord give any information as 84 to the proposals which they have put forward and can he say whether we have, in effect, agreed to any of these proposals, because I think it is an interesting subject to them and they are very worried and concerned about it.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I could not give an answer to that question without notice, but I will look into it.