HL Deb 12 November 1974 vol 354 cc686-9
THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on their intentions to alter the present system of rating.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS BIRK)

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has set up a Committee of Inquiry under Mr. Frank Layfield, QC, to review the whole system of local government finance. The Committee has been asked to report by the end of 1975 and my right honourable friend will make his intentions known when he has considered the Committee's Report.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, and if the Layfield Committee is due to report by the end of 1975, may I ask whether she could say why it is necessary that any submissions of evidence must be made by the end of this month? Is the noble Baroness aware that a number of bodies are concerned at the rigidity of this time-scale? May we take it that the Layfield Committee will, indeed, report well before the end of 1975?

BARONESS BIRK

My Lords, we are hopeful that the Committee will report before then. I think the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, appreciates that the amount of evidence that comes in takes a considerable amount of time to sift, be gone through and absorbed. However, if the noble Earl has any specific body or person in mind who would want, for certain reasons, to give evidence later, perhaps he would be kind enough to write to me.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, can the noble Baroness state why this particular Committee has been set up to go into local government finance? Is it due to pressure from the County Councils' Association, the Rural District Councils' Association, or from what source? Is the setting up of this Committee on the initiative of the Minister through his Department, or of the Government?

BARONESS BIRK

My Lords, it is on the initiative of the Government; but I think it is fairly common knowledge that on the part of both the local authorities and the ratepayers there has been a great deal of disquiet on the subject of rates because of the tremendous increase in the cost of, and great increase in the demand for, public expenditure. I think I can say that the setting up of a committee has been welcomed on all sides.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say what forecasts Her Majesty's Government have made on the likely increase in domestic rates in the next twelve months? Can the noble Baroness give an assurance that there will be a top limit beyond which local authorities will not be able to charge domestic ratepayers?

BARONESS BIRK

No, my Lords; I cannot give any assurance like that. As I am sure the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, is aware, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is now in the process of considering the rate support grant for 1975–76. I cannot go further than that.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, apart from inflation, the cost of the recent Tory Party changes in local government have been achieved at colossal cost to ratepayers throughout the country?

LORD BOYLE OF HANDSWORTH

My Lords, may I ask a question on the Inquiry; namely, will the noble Baroness ask her right honourable friend the Secretary of State not to insist too strictly on these details by the end of the month? I believe there are a good many individuals, not least in universities, who would like to submit evidence, but who may not be able so to do at once. It is important that the Inquiry should be thorough from the point of view of evidence submitted to it. I hope the fullest opportunity will be given to individuals as well as to organisations.

BARONESS BIRK

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord and to the noble Earl for having drawn my attention to this matter. I shall certainly look into it, and will certainly communicate with the noble Lord as well as with the noble Earl.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, could my noble friend ask her right honourable friend to get the Committee to expedite this Inquiry? It should not take twelve months or more to investigate a matter like this which has already been investigated some hundreds of times during the last fifty years. Secondly, with regard to the deadline of December, 1975, will she bear in mind that most councils have by that date got half way through the preparation of their budgets?

BARONESS BIRK

My Lords, on the last part of my noble friend's question, whenever one brings something out there are problems attached to it. So far as the timing is concerned one immediately observes a difference of opinion. My noble friend says it will take too long and two other noble Lords have pointed out that more time is needed for evidence. It is necessary to obtain some sort of compromise between the various views.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether, when the Houghton Committee report, Her Majesty's Government look to the local authorities to absorb the ultimate cost of their recommendations on teachers' salaries?

BARONESS BIRK

No, my Lords, I am afraid I cannot. I must remind the noble Earl that that is quite a different question.