HL Deb 21 May 1974 vol 351 cc1318-21

2.58 p.m.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider the appropriate means (as, for example, at the discussions on the European Conference for Security and Co-operation and on Mutual Reduction of Armaments) of consideration of the proposal of the Warsaw Pact States that the military functions of the Warsaw Pact and NATO should be simultaneously disbanded.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government regard the alliance as an instrument of détente no less than of defence. The mutual and concurrent phasing out of NATO and the Warsaw Pact (including the bilateral defence agreements which underly it) should be seen as an ultimate objective of the present movement towards a more satisfactory relationship in Europe.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. May I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government appreciate that in the present situation there is what is almost a unique opportunity for a breakthrough for peace in Europe and in the world? Do they appreciate that this proposal by the Warsaw Pact Powers, that both NATO and the Warsaw Pact should be simultaneously disbanded in their military forms, gives Her Majesty's Government an opportunity to lead for peace that they have never had before?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I agree that there are some very hopeful signs emanating from the two main Conferences which are now in progress—the C.S.C.E. and the M.B.F.R. However, we should not exaggerate the hopes that most people in Europe are beginning to feel. As regards my noble friend's suggestion, for which I have great respect, I do not think it would be appropriate or practical to include consideration of the proposal for the simultaneous dismantling of the two Alliances in either the M.B.F.R. or the C.S.C.E. discussions. What I think may happen—and, again, one speaks hopefully—is that a successful outcome of the negotiations in those two substantive Conferences will lead to a situation in which proposals such as his and others may fruitfully be pursued.

LORD ST. HELENS

My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government to reaffirm that disarmament will not precede détente, and will only follow as a result of détente?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, it is certainly true that the basis of all disarmament must be a feeling of confidence and security.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend able to say whether there has been the slightest indication on the part of the Soviet Union that it is ready to abandon the Warsaw Pact, if simultaneously those associated with NATO abandon the NATO Pact? Has there been the slightest indication or representation to Her Majesty's Government or even to the United States of America to that effect?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we can only go on the repeated statements made on behalf of the Warsaw Pact countries that they are prepared for this even-handed dismantling of the two Alliances. But, of course, there are a great many contingent questions of a very important nature that must be asked before this somewhat simplistic proposal can be proceeded with. I have tried to indicate that this country—and, in particular, the non-aligned countries who are very important members of the C.S.C.E.—feel that the building up of confidence and security must precede any consideration such as the one proposed by my noble friend Lord Brockway.

LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL

My Lords, do the Government consider that the Warsaw Pact is of the same order of importance to the Eastern bloc as NATO is to the West?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lord, I could not answer that, except to say that they apparently seem to think so. Hopefully, we may all look to a time when such a feeling of security and confidence has been created by the two Conferences now in progress that we can talk meaningfully about the dismantling of all Alliances, whether détentive, defensive or both.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister this further question? While abhorring the authoritarian nature of the Communist countries, would it not be better for Her Majesty's Government to respond to this proposal made in a communiqué for the dismantling of both sides, by indicating that for the sake of peace they would welcome any dismantling of the division of Europe into two military blocs?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we have repeatedly made our views perfectly clear to the Warsaw Pact, to the non-aligned countries, and indeed to the international community. I do not think any new statement is necessary. Our views are perfectly well known and, indeed, shared by a great majority of the countries concerned. As to my noble friend's abhorrences and enthusiasms, I am bound to say that I share most of both.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that in the event of either bloc—that is, either NATO or the Warsaw Pact—being abolished, it would be necessary to neutralise Western Europe?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, that would seem to be a logical outcome of such a situation. Of course, as the noble Lord will know from his great experience in these matters, this has been the subject of quite definite proposals in the past, not least by Poland.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, are the Government aware that if they responded in the way suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and agreed to the disbandment of NATO in these circumstances, it would meet with a very vigorous reaction from a great many people?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I have no doubt that that would be so. However, our task is to keep on co-operating with a great many other countries and to continue—I apologise for repeating the phrase once more—this confidence-building operation, which is showing some signs of succeeding, both in Vienna and in the C.S.C.E.