HL Deb 21 May 1974 vol 351 cc1315-8

2.49 p.m.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they share the hope of so many of their own supporters that the existing European Economic Community will gradually develop into some form of democratic political union; or whether they intend, so far as lies in their power, to transform it into a simple industrial free trade area?

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)

My Lords, the Government have made it clear that our approach is to negotiate within the terms of the Treaties and to consider proposing amendments to those Treaties only if we find our essential interests cannot be met without them. Our negotiations are not based on an attempt to transform the Community into a simple industrial free trade area. The idea of creating some form of political union is at an embryonic stage, and many different views are held. We shall take part in discussions on it in the Community, which are just beginning.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, which is the sort of reply that I confidently expected, may I ask him this question? Seeing that our partners in Europe have already repudiated all ideas of concluding an industrial free trade area, and that they are also opposed to any alteration in the terms of the Treaties, would not the Government at least consider that the best hope of making progress towards changing the terms of our accession would be in the context of political discussions with our partners about the whole political future of the Community?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, as to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I really think that it is best for us to proceed with re-negotiation and to observe the outcome of that process. As to the second part of the question, there is a basic difference of view between the noble Lord and the Government on this matter. It is really necessary to negotiate the proper terms before we give any definitive attention to the political arrangements.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I hope we never accept political union such as would reduce this Parliament to a parish council and off-shore island of Europe? Is he also aware that I agree with the latter part of the noble Lord's Question, and that I believe in liberal, free trade among all the nations, instead of building tariffs against the world?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I doubt whether there would be any serious disagreement with my noble friend about the first part of his supplementary question, concerning the future survival, and potent survival, of our Parliamentary institutions in this country. I am flattered by the noble Lord's agreement and his attention. As to the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question, as he has said, the question of free trade of course includes various areas other than the area covered by the Nine. I think it is the general intention that there should be the fullest possible expansion of free trade through GATT and other arrangements throughout the world.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, while not wholly disagreeing with the thoughts behind the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that it might be more advantageous for your Lordships to consider the concrete benefits of belonging to the Community—the advantages of belonging to so large a market, the benefits accruing from the Social Fund, the potential advantages which we may gain from the Regional Development Fund and, indeed, as one noble Baroness said the other day, the advantages of providing our overseas aid through the E.E.C. framework?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we are in fact engaged in a fundamental re-appraisal of the advantages and disadvantages of the present terms. There may be concrete advantages. We are aware of there being some very hard terms.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, would it not be true to say that to try to develop the European Economic Community into a simple industrial free trade area having the aroma of the rich man's club would be a retrograde step? Is it not also true that it was the Customs Union concept that originally alienated some of us and obscured the ultimate ideal of gradually—and I stress, "gradually"—developing the E.E.C. into some form of democratic political union?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I think we would all agree that "free trade" is a comparative term. It cannot be applied properly to a tight little zollverein. I would hope that there would be consensus about expanding free trade, as we know it, so far as possible territorially and otherwise.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, has my noble friend observed that the newly-appointed President of France has declared resolutely, repeating what he stated during the election campaign, that he has not the slighest intention of engaging in re-negotiation with this or any other country? What is the reaction of Her Majesty's Government to that?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the reaction of Her Majesty's Government is that they will continue with their re-negotiation.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, can the noble Lord give an assurance that, whatever the outcome of the re-negotiation of the terms of entry, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government that we as a European country should play a full part in the development of Europe?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, indeed I can give that assurance. We have been giving considerable attention to the question of political arrangements in Europe, whatever form they may take as a result of re-negotiation, and in no way are we neglecting this or any aspect of increasingly closer cooperation, in Europe among the Nine and possibly further afield.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, does not the present disarray of other Common Market countries afford us a unique opportunity to assert British leadership? Could not Britain now give a real lead to Europe and avoid conveying even the slightest impression of hesitation or of dragging its feet?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I would not wish to comment on the first part of my noble friend's observation. I am tempted to say that each country negotiates in its own way. The British method is to engage in a formal, orderly process of re-negotiation, the first phase of which has already happened and the second phase of which we will hopefully begin on June 4.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)

My Lords, one of the benefits of your Lordships' House is that we now have a clock. We have been on this Question for seven minutes and if we take the same amount of time on the others we shall very shortly have occupied half an hour on Question Time. I do not think the House would wish that. May I suggest that we move to the next Question and if noble Lords wish to pursue this matter they might do so by putting down an Unstarred Question.