HL Deb 08 May 1974 vol 351 cc488-92

2.40 p.m.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the prohibition on the delivery of arms to Chile announced by the Foreign Secretary on March 27, what was:

  1. (a) the number of warships building on the Clyde on that date to the order of Chile or other foreign Governments, and
  2. (b) the value of each individual order, with the name of the country which placed it;
and which, if any, of those ships will not now be delivered.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GOROWNY-ROBERTS)

My Lords, details of foreign Government purchases of Defence equipment, including warships, are regarded as confidential. But I expect the contracts to which the noble Lord refers to be fulfilled.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, I am glad to receive that Answer and to have an authoritative statement that the ships on order at that particular time are now to be delivered. Is that the correct interpretation of the noble Lord's Answer?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

That is so, my Lords.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, the figures which I have been calculating as to the value of the contracts placed during the past five years with Clyde shipyards in relation to orders for war vessels by foreign Powers are of the order of—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Question!

LORD STRATHCLYDE

That is my question, my Lords, I asked the noble Lord whether he was aware—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

You did not!

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, I beg your Lordships' pardon if I did not, but I meant to do so. May I further ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that at the time his right honourable friend made that announcement n another place on March 27 there was a contract under active negotiation with the Greek Government for two frigates that had a contract value of some £50 million? I wonder whether the noble Lord will agree with me that foreign Governments in this field of armaments, or in any other, require and expect contracts to be honoured and delivery to be made no matter what changes there may have been in the political complexion of the Government here or in their own country? Can the noble Lord confirm that Her Majesty's Government have now come to the conclusion that it is very dangerous indeed to interfere with the terms of any contract which I have mentioned, and that it may well result—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Speech!

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)

My Lords, if the noble Lord will permit me to intervene. I would say that I have been in some difficulty with some of my own colleagues in that I have sought to interpose when I thought they were transgressing our Rules. I hope that the noble Lord will not provoke me to rise again on this matter. He has put, I think, two major suppplementary questions. Would he he content to let my noble friend answer them, and then if he felt he wished to pursue the matter perhaps he could. But he has perhaps gone sightly too far.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, may I conclude what I was saying by asking the noble Lord whether he will be good enough to remind his right honourable friend that generations of our fellow countrymen have proved from experience that trade follows the flag, particularly when the flag is the White Ensign, and that it is upon trade that the prosperity of this country depends?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we might also remind ourselves that on many occasions democracy has followed the flag. But on the questions that the noble Lord properly put to me, may I refer him to the last sentence of my reply to-day, in which I said that the contracts to which he referred are to be fulfilled, and also to the last two sentences of the reply given in another place on May 1 (which is somewhat later than March 27, which he quoted) by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary.

LORD ORR-EWING

My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that, although the Allende régime, may have come to power through democratic processes, so did the Hitler régime, and that a country does not necessarily therefore become a democracy, especially when, as in the case of the Allende régime in Chile, it was kept in power by Communist terrorists trained in Cuba? This has been revealed by very penetrating articles.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I think we must be very careful here. There is a Question on the Order Paper dealing with Chile, but to go as far as the noble Lord is going is really to go outside the Question.

EARL COWLEY

My Lords, while there are many of us on this side of the House who deplore the actions taken by the present Chilean Government as well as by its predecessor, may I ask whether the noble Lord can tell the House when the Labour Government are going to stop sacrificing the economic interests of this country for the sake of the dogmatic attitude of the Tribune group; and also tell the House what is the position of the spare parts?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the noble Earl's question is a pamphlet to which I could only reply with a pamphlet.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, although there is something to be said for trade following the flag, what some noble Lords opposite are asking is that the flag should follow trade, and that that is not right?

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, is it not a fact that, give or take a year or two, the approximate length of life of a warship is thirty years and that therefore no one can guarantee that a warship will not fall into the hands of a Government of which the Government of this country for the time being do not approve? Is not, therefore, all this a lot of nonsense?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, what the noble and learned Lord said about the lifetime of a warship may be true. Nevertheless, it is a clear duty that we should scrutinise ad hoc all situations of this kind as they arise, and do what we can to sustain democracy and preserve human rights.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that, although the physical life of a warship may be thirty years—in this case much of the building programme was initiated by the Party opposite—it was useless from the day it was put on the stocks?

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, may I be allowed to correct the noble Lord the Leader of the House? My Question does not relate only to Chile but to other foreign countries which have placed orders.

BARONESS ELLES

My Lords, will the noble Lord remember his statement about human rights and democracy when considering the new Anglo-Soviet trade agreements?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we will endeavour to apply this principle to every country with which we deal.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that there will be no question of cancelling arms shipments to India on the ground that India have now gaoled their railway trade union leaders?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, if the noble Lord were to raise that as a separate Question I would do my best to answer it.

THE EARL OF DUDLEY

My Lords, could the Minister say whether Her Majesty's Government are continuing to use our foreign exchange to purchase nitrates, whether for explosives or for fertilisers, from Chile?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I need notice of that question. I recognise its importance and pertinence. If the noble Earl will raise it later I shall do my best to answer it.