SERVICES PAY REVIEW (Hansard, 1 May 1974)

§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE FOR THE ARMY (LORD BRAYLEY)
My Lords, the Services' pay review for 1974 is being conducted by the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body, against the background of Stage 3 of the Pay Code, including the provisions relating to "unsocial hours". It would not be right for Her Majesty's Government to direct the form which this Review Body's recommendation should take. Pending the review I would prefer to make no further comment. We must wait for the review.

§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH
My Lords, will your Lordships allow me to explain before I ask my supplementary question—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
No!

§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH
Very well, my Lords, if you will not allow me to explain that I have no anti-miner feelings and was an officer in a Geordie battalion for two years, may I ask the noble Lord whether he read three Sundays ago, in, I think, the Sunday Times, the report of an interview with an ex-miner now serving in Northern Ireland, who made very pertinent remarks on the questions of danger, uncertain hours, the coal face percentage and absenteeism? Secondly, will the noble Lord agree that if the other Press reports of married soldiers having to go on National Assistance in order to pay for their married quarters are correct, the position is absolutely scandalous? 109 Finally, may I ask why we are so long in coming to a decision about what the pay should be? Is it perhaps because the soldiers have no strong union?

§ LORD BRAYLEY
My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is trying to say. I can say only that we are well aware of the difficulties and conditions faced by those serving in Northern Ireland. That situation needs no explanation. I am sure that it is one of the factors which the Review Body will take into account and that a Report will be forthcoming when it has made its decision.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, while noting with incredulity the way in which the noble Lord has called into account Stage 3 in order not to answer the Question, in the light of what happened during the Election, may I ask him whether he is aware that, because of the timing of Stage 1 and Stage 2 of the previous Government's incomes policy, the Forces suffered comparatively worse than others who had pay rises at that time?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Speech!

§ LORD CARRINGTON
I am sorry, my Lords. I did not want to make a speech, but if the noble Lord interrupts me I will probably explain further. However, he would be out of order were he so to interrupt. Is he aware that because of the timing the Civil Service were in the same position? The Civil Service were treated uniquely and were allowed to be regarded as a special case, and in discussing Services' pay the previous Government took into account the fact that the Civil Service had been specially treated. Are the noble Lord and the Government treating the Services specially in this case, having regard to what happened to the Civil Service?

§ LORD WIGG
My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I ask, if the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is inclined to be incredulous, that he also bears in mind that it borders on humbug for a noble Lord who was recently Secretary of State responsible for the defence of this country, who set up an independent board and who was himself waiting for its reply, now to ask for a sum to be guaranteed before the amount involved has been fully 110 worked out? If he is incredulous, I, too, am incredulous of Lord Carrington's perfidious humbug.

§ LORD BRAYLEY
My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend has said.

§ LORD ROYLE
My Lords, rather than equating the pay of a private soldier with that of a miner, I wonder whether my noble friend would ensure that it is equated with the income of property developers?

§ THE EARL OF ONSLOW
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would be just strong and silent, which he obviously is, and answer some of the questions that have been put to him, especially by my noble friend Lord Carrington? Secondly, is it true that the soldiers in Germany are paid less than the soldiers in Northern Ireland? If this is so, does not the situation seem to require redressing?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I wonder whether the House would not agree that my noble friend has made it quite clear to all those who are prepared to listen that all these matters are being taken into account, and that for the reasons he has stated there is nothing more he can add at the present time?

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that, under the previous Government, our men in Ulster, who have done such admirable work while in that area, were never regarded as on active service, and therefore could not be adequately recompensed? Can we have an assurance from my noble friend that his right honourable friend will seek to hurry up the Report of the review body so that we can then decide what adequate recompense should be made to our men in Ulster?

§ LORD BRAYLEY
My Lords, this will be dealt with as soon as possible.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I hesitate to rise again, but as I am not going to get an answer, may I ask the noble Lord when he expects the Report to be published and the Government to take action on it?

§ LORD BRAYLEY
As soon as possible, my Lords.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, while I do not like this comparison being made with the miners' settlement—I should rather have seen a comparison with some other industry offering high wages—I should like to make this point to the Minister. There was deep consternation among the troops and in the Navy at the long delay in giving them their increase in wages. The Committee which is making this review should now speedily come to a conclusion because there is consternation among the troops that, everyone in industry is getting rises while they are being left behind due to Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 3 of the Tory policy.

§ LORD BRAYLEY
This is a matter of general concern, my Lords, and we all share this concern. I am sure that the review body will take these points into account when they reach their findings.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I wonder whether it would help the noble Lord opposite if I say that, even though there may be some further delay, or the Report is not published immediately, the effective date for the increases will be April 1 irrespective of the date of the publication of the Report and the decisions.

THE EARL OF ARRAN
Meanwhile, my Lords, may I ask a question of Her Majesty's Government? Is it not a fact that if the Yorkshire miners' latest claim for an increase of £20 a week for underground workers is granted it will bring up their gross payment to £65 plus whatever overtime they are prepared to do? Is it not also a fact that the pay of an ordinary unmarried private in Ulster is just £21 a week plus free board and lodging and uniform, and that there is no overtime? Who bears the greater responsibility?

§ LORD WIGG
My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House a question?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Answer!

§ LORD WIGG
On a point of order, my Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether it is in order for a noble Lord to read his supplementary question? If it is, what has happened to the Rules of the House, which forbid the reading of speeches? Now we have the reading of supplementary questions. What is this—a place for debate or a lunatic asylum?

THE EARL OF ARRAN
My Lords, I was just getting the facts correct.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I think we have pursued this about as far as we usefully can. So far as the noble Lord's question is concerned, he has the facts correct; but it is also true, as my noble friend has said, that the Review Board is also aware of those facts and is taking them into account. The Report will be published as soon as possible. Together with that Report will be the decisions taken upon it by the Government; and the effective date of the pay increases will be April 1.

§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the reason why I asked this Question was purely to try to get the Servicemen's pay increase paid this summer? May I ask him, as a final question, whether he read the Morning Star yesterday, which headlines a Mr. Emrys Williams—I am sorry if I have to read his name—demanding £100 a week for miners by November 1 "or else"? Can that be borne in mind when dealing with the Servicemen's pay?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I think it can be stated quite definitely that the pay of the Services is not going to be pegged to anything the Morning Star says.

§ LORD TAYLOR OF MANSFIELD
My Lords—

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I really do feel, if my noble friend will allow me, that we have explored this matter fairly deeply and widely. Although any information my noble friend can give in the guise of a question about the situation in the milling industry would be useful, I think that it is probably straying rather wide of the original Question.