§ BARONESS ELLESMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many members have been nominated from the United Kingdom to the Economic and Social Council of the European Economic Commission and when such nominations will be published.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)My Lords, since accession to the European Communities the United Kingdom has filled 16 out of a possible 24 seats on the Economic and Social Committee. The current term of appointment of all existing members of the Committee expires on August 22, 1974, and three of the present United Kingdom members have expressed the wish not to be reappointed. The Government have decided that it is appropriate for the United Kingdom to continue to be represented on the Economic and Social Committee during renegotiation, but that it is not appropriate at the present stage to nominate new members to fill the vacancies left by retiring members. They have therefore renominated the 13 members who wish to continue to serve, but will not for the time being be making any further nominations.
§ BARONESS ELLESMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that an intolerable burden will be put on the 13 members who have been renominated? Views concerning vital interests of the United Kingdom, including the whole of industry in Scotland, will not be represented on the Committee, and since decisions are taken by a majority on the Economic and Social Committee the United Kingdom's full working strength will not be represented.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, no doubt an extra burden of work will fall on the 13 as distinct from the 16 members of the Committee. But they were informed of the Government's de-decision and the reasons for it and, nevertheless, 2144 accepted renomination on that basis. On the second point which the noble Baroness raised, we do not anticipate any serious consequences to result during this interim period.
§ BARONESS ELLESMy Lords, will the Minister reconsider his decision in the light of the fact that we are full members of the Community, and that abiding by the terms of the Treaty in good faith includes procuring the benefits for the citizens of this Kingdom as well as observing the obligations? If the views of this Government are to be put to the vote of the British people, they should be told that we are not being represented in the bodies of the Community in order to get the benefits that accrue from full membership of them.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the balance of advantage to this country—this is certainly the view of Her Majesty's Government—is to participate in the on-going business of the Community, as we are members of it, but to do nothing which would prejudice the successful completion of renegotiation.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, does that mean that the Government have nothing to contribute and nothing to learn from sitting on this Committee?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSNo, my Lords, it does not. It means that the Government have decided that there shall be representation within the limits I have described. In this way the balance I have described is fairly maintained.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, what do the Government hope to gain by not nominating the full membership of this Committee?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, they will gain their objective of having a meaningful and serious renegotiation which will not be prejudiced; and they will also fulfil their undertaking to the Community that, while we are members of it, we shall take part in the on-going business of the Community.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, how could appointing full membership in any way prejudice the negotiations?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Lord might ask how the country's position is prejudiced by the 2145 fact that only 16 out of 24 nominations have been found practicable. The whole section has not been filled because of the basic objection of the employees' organisations to be represented at all on this Committee.
§ LORD SAINSBURYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us on this side of the House are not happy with his reply on behalf of the Government?
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us are very happy with it? Is he further aware that many of us would sooner see economic conditions in Scotland and England determined by the Parliament here and not by someone abroad whom we do not know.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is proper that I should address myself to those two questions together because together they give the full answer. Obviously the Government must be on the right course.
LORD CHELWOODMy Lords, even if the Labour Party insists on sulking on the sidelines where the European Parliament is concerned, surely full advantage ought to be taken of the 24 vacancies on the Economic and Social Council, the advice of which is highly valued by the Commission and by the Council of Ministers?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the advantages are more properly and effectively examined in the light of the results of renegotiation. In any case there is representation on this Committee. It is not as full as the noble Lord would wish; nevertheless it is there. The balance is one of not prejudicing renegotiations while also taking part in the on-going business of the Community.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend a rather different question? Can he reconcile why the Government have decided not to nominate any Members of the other place or of your Lordships' House to the European Assembly, but nevertheless have decided to repeat nominations for this Committee?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the answer is of course that our attitude to membership of the European Assembly will equally depend on the outcome of renegotiation.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, has my noble friend had his attention directed to an article in the mid-page of to-day's Times, and is it not high time that the implications of that article were refuted?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSNo doubt, my Lords, but not just yet.
§ LORD DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, is this to be taken as further evidence to show that, while the so-called renegotiation is proceeding, the Government are not pressing in the Community to obtain the economic and financial advantages which might be obtained as a result of our being members of the Community?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the whole object of the serious and fundamental renegotiation in which we are engaged is to obtain for this country the fullest possible economic and social advantages.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, were we to understand the noble Lord to say that the working class or wage earners did not want representation? Does the Labour Party represent only them?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I was addressing myself to the fact about which your Lordships will know: that this Committee is composed of three sections, including employers' and employees' organisations, and the Trades Union Council has so far not seen it practicable to nominate for that section representing employees.
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, will the Minister agree that even these 13 will not be attending after the next General Election?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as I said, it will very much depend on the progress and the results of renegotiation.