§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many further deaths in Great Britain are known to have been caused by the use of shotguns since the answer given to me in this House on 15th March 1972 excluding cases of accident and suicide.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH)My Lords, the numbers of deaths in England and Wales caused by a shotgun and currently classified as murder or manslaughter were 20 in 1972, and 15 in 188 1973. The numbers of deaths in Scotland caused by a shotgun and currently classified as murder or culpable homicide were two in 1972 and two in 1973.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, while I find it difficult to thank the Minister for that distressing Answer, may I ask him whether he is able to say in how many incidents these shotguns were legally or illegally acquired?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I am making arrangements to have this information obtained, and I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, when we have the information.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is satisfied with a situation in which persons such as myself who do not yet admit mental illness can obtain a shotgun certificate, obtain a number of shotguns and then hang them on their front door, saying, "Help yourselves to as many as you wish"?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the Government would take the view that the present situation is fairly unsatisfactory.
§ Lord HAMILTON of DALZELLMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell us how many of the shotguns in question were sawn-off; that is to say, illegally shortened?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I regret that I do not have that information.
§ Baroness STOCKSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are dealing not only with the present situation—which has pinpointed the situation with which the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton, wishes to impress us—but we are also dealing with the whole position which existed long before we suffered acts of terrorism? It was always easy for anyone to acquire a shotgun.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the position was unsatisfactory. Indeed, it was my right honourable friend the present Home Secretary who, when Home Secretary on the last occasion, introduced shotgun control.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, when my noble friend applies his mind to this matter at the Home Office, as he has promised (and we are grateful for that promise), will he also bear in mind that it seems easy to obtain a licence to sell shotguns and revolvers, and that people of very dubious character and with dubious antecedents seem to have no difficulty whatsoever in buying these things? My noble friend himself informed me in a Written Answer that the Home Office did not even have a list of these dealers.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, we would certainly take the view that the present situation is not satisfactory. We will take all these considerations into account when we formulate our proposals.
§ Lord FRASER of LONSDALEMy Lords, are not the numbers quoted almost derisory? In a country with so many lunatics about, to have eight or ten people killed is not very much.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, the breakdown of the figures shows that in 1972 there were five cases of murder and ten of manslaughter, and there were five cases in which the suspect died, committed suicide or was found subsequently to be insane. These are disturbing figures. If the Government can formulate proposals, as I hope they can, certainly we will be anxious to present them to Parliament as soon as possible.
§ Lord SWANSEAMy Lords, would the noble Lord accept that the great majority of the owners of shotguns treat their security in a very much more responsible way than that suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I am sure the position is that many owners take what they regard as adequate precautions. Nevertheless, the figures are disturbing, and the House should be aware of them.