CONTROL OF FIREARMS (Hansard, 4 December 1974)

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, the Working Party's main proposals were incorporated in a Green Paper published by the previous Government in May, 1973. The Government have no plans for early legislation on this subject.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord the Minister to say that the Government have, or have not, early plans?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I fear there is no prospect of legislation in the present Parliamentary Session. This matter is at present being considered by Ministers and, as I indicated, we hope to formulate our proposals with the minimum delay.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, since it is now two years since the Working Party completed its rather leisurely deliberations, and another year and a half since the Green Paper was published, would not the Minister consider that this is now a matter of very high priority, especially in view of the disturbing figures which he gave?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
Yes, my Lords, I think this is a disturbing situation. Unhappily, at the moment the situation is that there is a considerable amount of legislation proposed for the present Parliamentary Session, but I hope that as soon thereafter as is possible I shall be in a position to put our proposals to Parliament.

§ Lord HALE
My Lords, would the noble Lord recall that some years ago all of us were appealed to to surrender any weapons in our houses? Some of us were foolish enough to do so, and now they 191 appear to be being sold at Sotheby's or Christies instead of having been destroyed. At that time there was a clear indication that something was to be done about the control of firearms, and I believe that was quite a number of years ago.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, on a number of occasions in the past there have been firearms amnesties, and this is one of the matters which will be considered before Ministers put their proposals to Parliament.

§ Lord GISBOROUGH
My Lords, when the review is made will the Minister consider whether or not applicants for an initial issue of shotgun licences should be obliged to show that they are conversant with the gun code and the gun laws, perhaps by a relevant test conducted by any of the 350 gun associations and clubs which might be approved for that purpose by the Minister?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this is a requirement which I know exists in a number of other countries, and certainly we will take this into account when we are undertaking our review.

§ Lord DRUMALBYN
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the implication of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Hale, is that the arms which were surrendered are now being sold? Is there any evidence of this because, if so, it would be a very serious matter.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, not so far as I am aware.

§ Lord HALE
My Lords, the implication of my question was not that those arms are being sold, but arms from those who failed to answer the appeal. The unfortunate use of the word "amnesty", which rather indicates that people who surrendered were burglars or something like that, does not in fact apply to me. I surrendered those of which I was in lawful possession with the licence, in response to an appeal from the Government, as I am quite sure many others of Her Majesty's citizens did.

§ Lord ROBBINS
My Lords, would the noble Lord tell us whether any antique firearms which have been sold at 192 Sotheby's or Christie's—in which I have no interest whatever—have ever been used for criminal purposes?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, not so far as I am aware.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that one gathers from the reply given to my noble friend Lady Wootton that the Home Office is not so interested in this very important matter? In the course of his reply, my noble friend used as a form of argument the legislation that the Government have before them for this Session. But ought not the Home Office to have a further look at this matter to see how urgent it is, because it concerns not only the noble Baroness but the public at large?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
Yes, my Lords. I am sure that this situation concerns a very large number of people. Nevertheless, the reaction to the previous Government's proposals in their Green Paper indicated that such legislation would be controversial and quite substantial, and it would be foolish for me to pretend that there will be time in the present Parliamentary Session.

§ Lord SWANSEA
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Government have given further consideration to the suggestion of setting up a standing advisory committee to advise on firearms legislation?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this is one of the matters which will have to be considered.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, can the noble Lord either deny or confirm what I was once told by a clerk to a metropolitan court, that any property which is confiscated by the police or surrendered to the police must by law be sold?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I would not want to give an answer to a question of that character without checking the situation. That I will do.

§ Lord PLATT
My Lords, in any further consideration of this matter, will the Home Office take into account, as I 193 presume they will, that the number of people murdered by firearms is important, but perhaps not of supreme importance? Surely the point is the number of burglaries and bank robberies done under threat of someone being shot.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I am sure that is true. The fact is that when my right honourable friend made his proposals in 1967 they were regarded as unacceptable by some of the interests involved, and what has happened since then has indicated that in so far as we have erred in any particular direction we have erred rather on the conservative side.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord SHEPHERD)
My Lords, might I suggest that we move to the next Question?