EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Hansard, 10 April 1974)

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I will do so briefly. The terms of the Motion are identical to that which the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, when Leader of the House, moved for setting up a Scrutiny Committee for European Instruments. The House will be pleased to know that the Committee of Selection will be meeting on May 1 to consider the names of noble Lords who should serve on this important Committee. I hope that the meeting of the House of Lords Offices Committee this afternoon will agree the appointment of a Deputy Chairman of Committees, whose principal duty will be to chair this particular Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider Community proposals, whether in draft or otherwise, to obtain all necessary information about them, and to make reports on those which, in the opinion of the Committee, raise important questions of policy or principle and on other questions to which the Committee consider that the special attention of the House should be drawn;
That the Committee have power to appoint sub-committees and to refer to such sub-committees any of the matters within the terms of reference of the Committee; that two be the quorum of such sub-committees and that they have power to appoint their own Chairmen;
That the Committee have power to co-opt any Lord for the purpose of serving on a sub-committee;
That the Committee and any sub-committees have power:

(i) to send for persons, papers and records; and

(ii) to adjourn from place to place;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to appoint persons with specialised knowledge for the purpose of particular enquiries either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference;
1230 That the Minutes of evidence taken before the Committee or any sub-committee from time to time be printed and, if the Committee think fit, be delivered out.—(Lord Shepherd.)

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
My Lords, this is a significant Motion. It is the second time that it has been introduced into your Lordships' House, and it is a matter of some satisfaction to the House as a whole—not just to noble Lords on this side of the House—that the Government have been able to come forward with a Motion establishing the European Communities Committee with identical terms of reference to those which were agreed by the House before the Dissolution of Parliament in February. It is clearly the wish of the House that the terms of reference should be those which were proposed by the Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, and which were endorsed by a well-attended meeting of the Procedure Committee. It is I think unfortunate that the General Election should have delayed the setting up of the Select Committee of your Lordships' House by some weeks, but we all know that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who was himself an active member of Lord Maybray-King's Committee, is determined to press on with its establishment and to get it working as soon as possible. So this Motion is extremely welcome to noble Lords on this side of the House and indeed I know, having myself moved the previous Motion at that Dispatch Box, to the House as a whole.

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, I approve this Motion most heartily. I think it is correct to say that it is an important Committee and we wish it well in its work. Is there any indication as to how soon "soon" will be?

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, before the Motion is approved, may I ask my noble friend a question? Is he aware that I do not propose to oppose the Motion, although I do not think it will be of the slightest use?—but that is another matter. I wish to ask a question that should have been asked when the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, on behalf of the then Government and now leading for the Opposition, had the previous Motion down on the Order Paper. The 1231 question relates to the proposed activities of the Committee and sub-committees. I notice that they have power "to adjourn from place to place". This is somewhat ambiguous. If it is not ambiguous, it is rather too comprehensive. Can my noble friend say what that means? Does it mean that the Committees can go for joyrides to Strasbourg, Bonn, Brussels or Paris, and even further afield? What is to be the criterion? What is to be the actual geographical latitude? We ought to know about that before we approve the Order.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, and the noble Lord, Lord Wade, and in some respects to my noble friend Lord Shinwell, for the welcome they have given to the Motion. To the noble Lord, Lord Wade, who asked how soon the Committee will be set up, I hope that it will be in the first week after the Easter Recess, when I hope to move a Motion appointing the Deputy Chairman; and then of course the Members will be appointed and the Committee should be able to start work immediately. Therefore I am thinking very much of the short term.
In regard to my noble friend's view as to the use of the Committee, I fear that, as on a number of other matters, I do not agree with him. I think it will be a useful Committee and may well prove to have a significant effect on procedure and attitudes in your Lordships' House. As to the words "adjourn from place to place", my understanding is that in your Lordships' House we like to have as much latitude as possible in our terms of reference and this clearly gives an opportunity for this Committee, if it so wished, to move from here perhaps to the old Middlesex Hall; or, if necessary, it could go to Brussels if it felt that it had a special reason to go there. But what we have sought here is to ensure that the Committee shall have the fullest freedom and flexibility to perform its undoubtedly important work.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I am inclined to oppose this Motion because of what my noble friend has just said. I can understand if there is a limit to the geographical activities of this Committee and its sub-committees—that is one 1232 thing. But it is another story if they are permitted to go abroad.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, order!

§ LORD DERWENT
My Lords, surely no noble Lord is allowed to speak more than once.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, that is entirely true. I have sought to explain to my noble friend Lord Shinwell that if he disagrees with the Motion of course he knows that he has the opportunity so to do. But in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has said, clearly a noble Lord may speak for a second time only with the leave of the House.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, in point of fact I only asked a question.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, order!

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, can I not oppose the Motion?

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, I move that the leave of the House be given to my noble friend to speak a second time.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
I am sorry, my Lords; I have been here quite a long time, and I have never yet known that one noble Lord could speak on behalf of the whole House. We have debated this matter and I do not think I have anything further to say on the point the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has raised. I think, therefore, that we ought to proceed.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I fancied I raised a legitimate point—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, Order!

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, am I out of order?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Yes.

§ LORD SHINWELL
I am out of order, am I?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Yes.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, with great respect, to whom am I to speak? I do not advise you to provoke me too much.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I feel we are getting into difficulties. I think the view of your Lordships' House is quite clear, and though I hate having to 1233 say it to my noble friend, because I know how strongly he feels on this matter, I think he is pressing the House rather too far and I hope that he will not go any further.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I am very glad to get a little support from the Front Bench, but if Members of your Lordships' House think they are going to shout me down they are making a terrible mistake. I do not stand for that.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, Order!

§ LORD SHINWELL
Do not start that business, you on the Opposition Benches. You will not stop me from speaking if I want to speak. It is better to speak more than once than not to speak at all.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, Order!

§ LORD SHINWELL
Do not shout me down, because if you start that business some of you will be shouted down: understand that! I will not have it from you or anybody else.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, Order!

§ LORD SHINWELL
You will not stop me from speaking. I will respond to my noble friend, but not to you.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will take what is the sense of this House. This House is generous. We stray from time to time, but we have now gone so far that one has to draw the line and say that we should now put the Motion to the House for a vote if it is necessary.