HL Deb 18 October 1973 vol 345 cc378-84

3.16 p.m.

EARL ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty The Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Local Government (Scotland) Bill, has consented to place Her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD POLWARTH)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Polwarth.)

On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.

Clause 52 [Schemes]:

BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 28, line 3, at end insert— ("( )provisions concerning the procedures to be adopted by which the community councils on the one hand and the local and public authorities with responsibilities in the areas of the community councils on the other will keep each other informed on matters of mutual interest;")

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we now come to the last phase in this long and, for us living in Scotland, extremely important Bill. This Amendment which I now move—I think for the third time, although I have made one or two alterations in consultation with those powers that be who are much better at drafting Amendments and Bills than I am—I now with some confidence hope that the Government will accept. I must apologise to the House for the fact that there is a mistake in the printing: namely, that this Amendment applies to Clause 52 where it appears on the Marshalled List as applying to Clause 53.

This Amendment is quite a simple one. The reorganisation of local government in Scotland is on a large scale, it is creating large authorities and it will mean that those people who live in the small areas, villages and townships will be further away from the regional government than they were when we had simply the ordinary county councils, district councils and, in some cases, advisory committees for local councillors. The community council, which is to replace the local advisory sub-committee and the district council, should be treated with great importance because it is to be composed of those very people whom the district and regional government should consult and represent.

In this Amendment I have put forward a suggestion that there should be a two-way conducting of affairs and information and that the public authority with responsibility in the area of the community council should keep the community council informed on matters of mutual interest. I am quite sure that it will make it easier for the district and regional councils if they know what is going on at the very grass roots. I very much hope the Government will consider this a helpful Amendment, that it is not being put forward in a critical manner but in an effort to help make the reorganisation run smoothly. I have the pleasure of moving at Third Reading an Amendment almost exactly the same as the one I moved on Report stage. I beg to move.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I am sure we all admire the persistence of the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, in coming forward with yet another version of her original Amendment. I can see that it is an improvement on the previous one; it no longer contains provisions which I think would have been unenforceable regarding regular and sufficient information and activities and proposals. I have some reservations about how much the Amendment, even in this form, will achieve. I think it is more a pious expression of intent than anything that could lead to enforcing the provisions on information. Nevertheless, it may well be the wish of the House to allow this Amendment to pass, as it were as a sort of gesture in favour of arrangements for the mutual exchange of information on which we are extremely keen. So I should not be disposed to ask your Lordships to object to this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 97 [Establishment of Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland]:

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 2: Page 52, line 2, leave out from ('Audit") to end of line 9, and insert (",officers of the Commission, being professional accountants. and approved auditors by the Commission for the purpose of conducting audits or, as the case may be, a particular audit, under this part of this Act, and "approved auditor" means an auditor who is qualified under subsection (7) below.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, at Report stage your Lordships agreed to Amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, which wrote into the Bill requirements as to the qualifications of auditors appointed by the Commission for Local Authority Accounts. The present Amendments are designed to correct the drafting of the noble Lord's Amendments without altering the principle of them in any way.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 3.

Amendment moved—

Page 52, leave out from beginning of line 10 to ("are") in line 11, and insert— ("(7) An auditor is qualified for the purposes of subsection (6) above if, and only if he is a member, or a firm all the members of which")—(Lord Polwarth.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1 [New Local Government Areas]:

LORD STRATHCLYDE moved Amendment No. 6: Page 159, column 3, leave out lines 8 to 10 and insert ("that part of the parish of Ayr within the district of Dalmellington; the polling district of Coylton").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, when the Bill first appeared, the county of Ayr was divided into two districts. In another place that was altered to four districts, two in the North and two in the South. The two in the South were named Kyle and Carrick and Cumnock and Doon Valley. In the latter district were included two parishes, one named Coylton and the other Dalrymple, an arrangement which met with the general satisfaction of the inhabitants of those parishes. During the Committee stage my noble friend the Minister carried an Amendment which removed Coylton and Dalrymple from Cumnock and Doon Valley and put those two parishes into Kyle and Carrick. I have no doubt that my noble friend was influenced by the fact that the boundary of Coylton parish was so close to the boundary of the Burgh of Ayr that it left little room for the expansion of that thriving and progressive burgh, and that accordingly he decided that it would be better if they were removed to the same district as Ayr; that is, to Kyle and Carrick. This caused much concern in the two parishes, particularly in Dalrymple which is very much an integral part of the Doon Valley. This Amendment, which returns Dalrymple parish to the Cumnock and Doon Valley district, leaving Coylton in Kyle and Carrick, is a compromise which I understand is generally acceptable to all concerned, and in these circumstances I hope that my noble friend will be able to accept it.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for bringing forward this Amendment. This matter has been very difficult to decide when one is obliged at this stage to use the existing boundaries. The answer is that no existing boundary really produces the right solution. At the end of the day I think that this is clearly a case for the Boundary Commission to draw a new line once the Bill is in operation as an Act. I would agree that the division suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is less unsatisfactory than any that we have had to date, and accordingly I should be happy to accept the Amendment.

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I should like to join with the Minister in accepting the Amendment which the noble Lord. Lord Strathclyde, has moved. I have been made aware by devious means—almost circuitous, I would say—that in another place both sides are now satisfied that this is the right way to do it. I believe the history was that it was done one way in Committee; it was reversed at the next stage, and each proposal had its own quota of opponents, and that what has now emerged is a half-way house between the first and the second proposal on which, in the sort of spirit that so often arises in these matters, people accepted that a compromise was perhaps the better way of doing it. Having regard to the way in which the Minister has received this Amendment I hope that this excellent spirit of compromise is a forerunner of what may take place in another place on much more important matters.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 7.

Amendment moved— Page 159, column 3, leave out from ("except") in line 13 to end of line 16 and insert ("that part of the parish of Ayr within this district the polling district of Coylton)."). —(Lord Strathclyde.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 27 [Adaptation and Amendment of Enactments]:

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 8: Page 278, line 10, at end insert—

("The Breeding of Dogs Act 1973

211. In section 5(2) (interpretation), in the definition of "local authority", for the words "the council of any county or burgh "there shall be substituted the words "an islands or district council".").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this Amendment I should draw the attention of your Lordships to what appears to be a printer's error on the Marshalled List. The figure "195" should read "211". This is the Schedule relating to the transfer of functions to the new local authorities from the old ones. It refers to the functions under The Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 which received a Second Reading in your Lordships' House earlier this week and which I am quite sure the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, hopes will complete its remaining stages later this afternoon.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

3.25 p.m.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. In normal circumstances I think that several of your Lordships would have liked to say a few words before the Bill is returned to another place, but I feel sure that in the circumstances of this afternoon, with a long queue of speakers waiting to take part in another debate, your Lordships will feel it more sensible to deal with this in a formal manner. Accordingly I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass. — (Lord Polwarth.)

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I should like to follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, and be very brief. During this week I have achieved a measurer of popularity on both sides of the House which has escaped me hitherto, but that will disappear almost entirely if I speak for a long time—certainly among the last seven in the list of 27 speakers who are to take part in the next debate. At the outset, even before the Bill was introduced in another place, I expressed the hope that we should consider it on a non-Party basis, and that has been done, certainly in Committee in another place. It has clearly been considered on a non-Party basis in your Lordships' House, and I hope that when the other place comes to consider what we have done it may be found possible for that to be done on a free vote. Obviously, if that proves to be so, it will be much easier for your Lordships to accept the advice which I have already given, that whatever they do in another place must be accepted. That certainly is my own view. But if it is clearly the expressed will of the Members of another place, rather than just an apparent Party division at the last minute, it will be much easier for us to accept it.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, may I, very warmly, on behalf of my noble friends and myself offer congratulations to my noble friend Lord Polwarth for his strenuous work on this Bill, which we all greatly appreciate. There is one small point with which I should not have troubled your Lordships were it not for a large banner-headline front-page article in the Glasgow Herald this morning referring to the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, carried on Monday. As the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has just said, he would not ask your Lordships to insist on it if another place disagreed with it, and this article expresses the fear that it may be impossible to disentangle the noble Lord's Amendment with the other Amendments concerning the peripheral districts which your Lordships passed in July and which it is understood that the Secretary of State is willing to accept.

I will not quote Erskine May, because my noble friend Lord Polwarth assures me that he already agrees with this, but it is made quite clear that the other place can not only insert new words and leave out any words in an Amendment; they can, if they like, disagree with the whole Amendment and substitute a new one of their own and send it back for your Lordships to consider. There is not the slightest reason why they should not disagree with one set of proposals and agree with another, although we have combined them in the same Amendment. I thought it might be a good thing to allay the apprehensions which have been expressed this morning in the Press.

LORD PARGITER

My Lords, on a point of clarification, I understand that the Motion at the moment is, That the Bill do now pass. Has the Bill to go to another place and to be returned to us again after they have considered these Amendments?

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I understand that this is quite normal procedure. We do move, "That the Bill do now pass", at this stage, but our Amendments must go back to the other place for their consideration.

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.