HL Deb 18 October 1973 vol 345 cc375-8

3.12 p.m.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands first in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how salaries paid to staff of the D.T.I. Petroleum Division compare with those paid to personnel of similar qualifications and experience in the oil industry.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, insufficient detailed information is available to enable the making of reliable comparisons.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the shortage of staff which has been demonstrated in the Answer to my second Question on the Order Paper is confirmed in my noble friend's Answer to this, my first? Would not he agree that it is a very serious matter that the D.T.I. appears to be seriously undermanned in the view of the industry, largely because they cannot offer comparable salaries?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, in my answer to the previous Question I have already stated that the appointment of five additional staff in these categories is under way. As my noble friend will realise, these matters, the pay determination, the level of pay rates, are the subject of agreement with the appropriate staff associations.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, is the noble Lord seriously saying, if I understood him correctly, that even if the Department does not know, his noble friend Lord Windlesham cannot find out what are the comparable figures in industry? Do I conclude from this that, owing to the Government's pay and prices policy, they have disbanded the central organ for finding out this information? If they cannot get it from within Government sources is the noble Lord aware that there are a number of reliable commercial bodies who can provide this information for a small fee?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the point is that it would not be practicable to determine the pay of very small classes like the geophysicists and the geologists, one of each, and petroleum engineers on the basis of the direct application of pay research. This is done in the larger groups whose pay is aligned with the major professional groups, whose pay is determined by pay research.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, could my noble friend say whether the recruitment, so proudly announced, of five new experts (where the industry seemed to think that 40 would have been better) is in any way impeded by the salary scales offered?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, in cases where there is a rapid expansion of demand for people of this kind, I think it is likely that others outside will be prepared to pay in order to attract employees; but the point is they would still be prepared to pay more than whatever rate we fixed for the salary scales.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us how many applicants there were for the last vacancies advertised?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I know that there were at least as many applicants as there were jobs offered.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, is this not a prime case of paying the "cops" just enough to make sure they do not catch the robbers?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the noble Lord has experience of these matters and he will know the difficulty involved here. I think it is sensible when you have small groups of this kind to relate their pay to the professional group as a whole. I do not see what alternative is possible.

LORD BERNSTEIN

My Lords, since it appears that oil is going to be more important than beef, would it not be a good idea for the D.T.I. to consult with other areas as to what the salary scales should be for the people responsible for North Sea Oil?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I have no doubt that this could be done. These are matters which are settled in the normal way under the normal negotiating procedure of the Pay Commission.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, is it not the case that this matter is something which should have been looked at with foresight by the previous Administration?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I cannot answer for the previous Administration; but I can say that the establishments have been fixed; that I have indicated the vacancies at the moment and I have indicated the further vacancies at the moment and I have indicated that further vacancies will be available.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the previous Administration did not pursue the "barmy" policy that the Government are at the moment pursuing on prices and incomes.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, perhaps it would have been better had they done so.