§ 2.40 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether statistics similar to those published for fatalities caused by domestic electrical equipment are available for gas and if so why they are not given wider circulation.
§ Loan STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the statistics published by the Registrar-General give similar information on fatalities caused by gas as for fatalities caused by domestic electrical equipment.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, I must ask the Minister whether he realises that the Home Office circulates a detailed list of accidents arising from the use of electricity which goes into details and is available to anyone who wants to study the matter in detail, and anyone concerned. It seems to me that the noble Lord's Answer implied that the same cannot possibly be true of gas. Am I correct?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the noble Lord, of course, sits on certain B.S.I. committees and in that capacity receives a number of other statistics through the Home Office. Similar statistics on fatalities attributable to gas are assembled by the British Gas Corporation and are available to the Department of Trade and Industry, but in view of the dramatic decline which accompanied the introduction of natural gas a wider circulation has been thought unnecessary.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether any noble Lords who may be interested in this problem, or anyone else who is professionally or semi-professionally concerned, can obtain a copy of these detailed statistics? May I ask him, further, whether he 894 realises that until comparatively recently deaths from gas were something approaching three times the figure of fatalities from electricity? Does he not think that greater notice ought to have been taken and these facts ought to have been brought to the notice of those concerned so that they could raise any questions they wished?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the noble Viscount has raised a number of questions and I will try to deal with them one by one. So far as the statistics are concerned it is a little difficult to make direct comparisons. However, the figures for gas fatalities have declined to about one-tenth of what they were ten years ago. The figures which I have here for electrical fatalities are not directly comparable because they exclude industrial accidents. So far as the wider dissemination is concerned, the Gas Corporation concentrate mainly on the dissemination of the information in the gas safety regulations and these were derived from their analysis of fatalities due to gas equipment.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the question raises a rather difficult answer. I wonder whether the noble Lord could undertake to see that this material is put into the Library of the House of Lords, as perhaps some noble Lord might like the opportunity to examine it.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI am sure that would be possible, my Lords.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the remarks that the noble Lord just made, am I to understand that natural gas is not lethal.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I do not think we can go quite so far as that, but it is, on the whole, less lethal, and accidents have declined since it was introduced. One of the reasons for this is that during the examination that is made of gas equipment before conversion takes place, there is ample opportunity for identifying defective equipment and seeing that it gets put right.
§ Loan AUCKLANDMy Lords, has my noble friends attention been drawn to last night's excellent "World in Action" television programme about the 895 Bristol experiment—about persons going round to people's homes, examining defective gas heaters and so on, and trying to catalogue injuries and deaths? Would he look into these particular figures and see that the rest of the country is able to make use of these facilities?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I saw that programme last night in anticipation of this Question this afternoon. There are two or three points which, unfortunately, did not come out in the programme. In the first place, Bristol has not yet been converted to natural gas, and something like 70 per cent. of the rest of the country has—about 9 million out of 13 million consumers. Therefore, to extrapolate from those figures is rather dangerous in itself. I mentioned the fact that the pre-conversion surveys have identified a lot of this defective equipment. Thirdly, fatalities from carbon-monoxide poisoning would in all probability be identified; therefore, it is very unlikely that the number of fatalities from carbon monoxide poisoning is under-recorded, which was the implication in that programme.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell me why natural gas has not been installed in College Road, Dulwich?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI do not have any detailed knowledge of College Road.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of these poisonings from gas heaters were incorrectly diagnosed by the hospitals and the figures were completely incorrect; and it is only recently that these facts have come to light? Would lie not agree that associations and others concerned with public safety should be able to have the facts, so that in certain instances they may perhaps encourage the Gas Council to take more active steps? Certainly, if the fatalities have decreased to one-tenth, it would appear that the figures were possibly not adequate in the past.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I think we can go along with most of those propositions.
§ LORD SLATERThe noble Lord says that natural gas is not lethal. But does 896 it matter whether it is natural gas or whether it is gas that has come from coal products or such like, because it still carries the danger that it is inflammable? Therefore it is bound to carry a high percentage of danger. I am rather amazed at the statement of the Minister when he says that it is less lethal. I think lie ought to go further into these matters and make further investigations.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI think we have to accept, my Lords, that it is less lethal, and I should have thought that the figures bore out that contention.