HL Deb 08 November 1973 vol 346 cc468-71

3.11 p.m.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals they have for rewarding administrative staff in the National Health Service for the extra work involved in reorganisation, on the lines of the extra payments made to staff similarly engaged in local government.

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)

My Lords, an agreement on payments for officers required by their authorities to undertake extra work and responsibility as a result of the preparation for National Health Service reorganisation was reached by the Administrative and Clerical Whitley Council this April. It was referred to the Pay Board, who, after taking account of supplementary submissions by the Council's secretariat, finally advised in October that the agreement was not consistent with the Pay Code for Stage 2.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that that is a very grave disappointment to those in the Health Service who have been loyally working this reorganisation for months, if not years; that it reveals a gross gap of inequity between the treatment afforded to them and to those in the local government service? What steps do Her Majesty's Government intend to effect to redress this grievance in the future; otherwise, do they realise they will face a very serious breakdown in morale at the time when they need the Service more than ever?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am well aware of the feelings that this decision has aroused. The Staff Side of the Administrative and Clerical Whitley Council saw my right honourable friend on October 23; he is now considering the points that were put to him and will shortly reply to the Staff Side. With regard to local government, the position here is that the payments to local authority officers are made under an agreement which was reached before the standstill. As to the future, I cannot anticipate what my right honourable friend will be replying to the Staff Side, but certainly this anomaly will no longer exist under Stage 3.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, does my noble friend accept the Pay Board's astonishing decision that in fact there is no extra work involved?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I should not like to quarrel with the decision of the Pay Board. The Pay Board are an independent body and they have considered this matter with very great care, and I am afraid I cannot quarrel with their conclusion.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord appreciates—I rather think he does—that these people have been doing two jobs for many months. He clearly recognises that the people responsible for reorganisation of local government have enjoyed an award; they are receiving payment for the extra work they are doing. Those who are to be transferred from local government to the National Health Service are working alongside these people. Would it not be reasonable for the Government to make representation to the Pay Board that here is indeed a very special case, and since the morale of those moving into the National Health Service is reaching such a low point, does he not agree that, in the interests of the Service, something needs to be done to improve that morale?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am aware of all that the noble Lord says, although I would not go quite so far as he does in saying that morale is at a very low ebb. Certainly the Pay Board are well aware of the position and how hardly it bears on certain officers in the National Health Service.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, the suggestion I made is that representations might be made to the Pay Board.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, the Pay Board are already well aware of the feelings of everybody.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when his right honourable friend reconsiders this matter, which the noble Lord has just told us he will, he should also be told of the very strong feelings in all parts of this House that here is a serious injustice? Is he aware that these officers have done work for which other officers in local government service have been specially paid? Is he aware that, as we see it, this is simply a technicality that has arisen out of the very proper arrangements which have been made to control the increase of pay and incomes at the present time? Is he aware that we expect him to find a solution to this technicality causing this injustice?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I certainly take what my noble friend has said, and I am sure that the House would echo his words. I must say that I doubt whether it really is just a question of parity; I think that the Pay Board have other reasons for thinking that to make an exception in one case would make it difficult not to do so in many others.

LORD PEDDIE

My Lords, would the Minister confirm or deny that the Pay Board have made the statement that no extra work is involved?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I should not like categorically to make that statement. I know that the Pay Board have considered this matter with great care, and have decided that this particular payment does not come within the Stage 2 regulations.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, would it help my noble friend if I told him that the Pay Board have said that no extra work was involved, and that this was merely a part of the duties of this staff in preparing for their own departure?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I accept that if that is what they said.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, does the noble Lord think that Phase 3 will be any better than Phase 2 so far as these people are concerned?

LORD ABERDARE

Yes, my Lords; as I tried to indicate, there will be no difficulty in paying extra money in Phase 3 as from November 6.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, then is there any possibility at all, if it can be paid under Phase 3, whether work done over the past few months will be taken into account, and whether there may be any back payment for it?

LORD ABERDARE

No, my Lords, I regret that this is not possible; it cannot be made retrospective. Paragraph 130 of the Code makes it clear that no payment should be made after November 6, 1973, in respect of periods before that date if the effect would be to circumvent the requirements of Stage 1 and Stage 3.