§ 3.16 p.m.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government since their Report entitled On the State of the Public Health states that after the publication of the report of the Royal College of Physicians there had been "an appreciable and sustained reduction in cigarette smoking. That ground was all lost in 1972.… It is manifestly not in the public interest that the cigarette should be so constantly presented as a desirable adjunct to sophisticated living;" what further 472 steps they propose to take to discourage this dangerous habit.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, we shall continue to advise the public, particularly the young, against taking up the habit of cigarette smoking and to urge those who are smokers to give it up. To those who cannot abandon the habit we shall offer as much advice as we can about ways of smoking less dangerously.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, I am much obliged. The Minister is having a busy time this afternoon. Has he seen a recent newspaper report that it is the policy of certain brewers to sell cigarettes in their public houses in packets of not less than 20? Will the Government endeavour to persuade the brewers that if they must sell cigarettes they should at least sell packets of 10 for the benefit of people who are trying to cut down their smoking?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, cigarettes can be bought in many places other than public houses, and in fact over 80 per cent. of sales are in packets of 20. I think that it would be a little out of keeping for the Government to start advising brewers on how they sell cigarettes. I am surprised that such a distinguished member of the Liberal Party should suggest that we should interfere.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, since smoking is on the increase again, is there any way of protecting us folk who do not smoke and who find ourselves inevitably in a cloud of tobacco smoke, particularly in aircraft and other public places? Is it not time that something more was done to protect us?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think that this is moving along the way that the noble Viscount and I would like to see. Certainly in my experience seats in aircraft are reserved for nonsmokers, which is something that never happend before.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, have we not had enough nonsense about cigarette smoking? If people want to kill themselves smoking cigarettes, why should they not?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord is not going to suffer this terrible fate. All we are doing is to try to advise people of the dangers that go with cigarette smoking.
§ LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRANMy Lords, does not the noble Lord realise that this is an international question, and at a meeting of the Assembly of the Council of Europe this matter was seriously considered for several hours? Does the noble Lord take any notice of what decisions are arrived at in the Council of Europe on this international matter?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am not sure that I know what the decisions were, but if the noble Lord will convey them to me I will see whether I can reply to him.
§ LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRANMy Lords, I am much obliged.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it would be better if the Government did not accept tax revenues from smoking, now that it has been proved to be deleterious to the public health? If they set an holiest example in this matter and transferred the taxation to lemonade, or something of a general health utility, would it not be to the common advantage?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think that is another question, but I should have thought that the higher tax was a deterrent to smoking.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, would the noble Lord kindly like to make a distinction as between cigarette smoking and other forms of smoking—pipe smoking and cigar smoking? Is he aware that I have been smoking since the age of 13, and that I do not seem to be suffering from the deleterious effects to which my noble friend has referred?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite exceptional in very many ways.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider the possibility of suggesting to the appropriate Ministry that the duty on pipe tobacco might be reduced in order to encourage those who smoke regularly to smoke pipes?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I certainly take note of that suggestion.
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, following the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, would the noble Lord the Minister agree that if people wish to kill themselves in their own way then at least they should not be misled? Would he therefore agree that the recent action of Courtaulds in by-passing the Hunter Committee and putting on the market a so-called "safer" cigarette is something which is extremely dangerous and could lead people to smoke many more cigarettes in the belief that it is safer to do so? Are the Government prepared to take action to stop this happening in the future?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that in another place on November 6 my right honourable friend answered a Question on this subject, in which Answer he deplored the fact that the company concerned had marketed these cigarettes before the relative safety of the product had been fully appraised. At the same time, he welcomed any move towards a proven less dangerous form of smoking.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, while declaring a past interest in Courtaulds, may I ask the Minister whether it would not be as well to hear Courtaulds' side of the matter before any action is condemned? May I furthermore ask him whether he would not agree—and I think he would, in view of what he has just said—that all non-smokers, of which I am certainly one, feel that if people must smoke it is probably better that they smoke a cigarette which is less dangerous than others?
§ LORD ABERDAREYes, my Lords, I accept what the noble Baroness says. In fact, my right honourable friend said that there was nothing to suggest that the smoker of the Courtaulds' product is in greater danger than the smoker of a tobacco cigarette and that he would have liked to welcome the Courtaulds' cigarette, but unfortunately the company went ahead before the Hunter Committee were satisfied that all the relevant tests had been carried out.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, having introduced the first debate in your Lordships' House after the First Report 475 of the Royal College of Physicians, and having viewed with dismay the feeble attitude of successive Governments in handling this problem, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government would not agree that not to take the most stringent possible attitude and steps, even at the risk of a substantial loss of revenue, would be in fact to be guilty of wilful murder?
§ LORD ABERDARENo, my Lords; I would not agree with that. In fact, I think the number of Liberals who wish to interfere with individual liberty is astonishing.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, would it be possible for the industry to be approached with a view to revising the existing Government health warning and to changing it to a form that would point out pictorially on cigarette packets the real hazards of cigarette smoking?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I think the warning is effective. I doubt whether there is anybody in this country who is not by now aware that cigarette smoking can be dangerous.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord remind the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, that people who kill themselves by smoking cigarettes have other people who love them and who are financially dependent upon them?
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, could the noble Lord the Leader of the House bring this debate to an end as some of us are dying for the want of a smoke?
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, I do not think that I should let that opportunity pass.