HL Deb 21 May 1973 vol 342 cc964-7
LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is now their policy to restrict membership of research councils and of the University Grants Committee to persons living in London or its immediate vicinity.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

No, my Lords. I assume that the noble Lord is referring to the problem which has arisen from the application of P.A.Y.E. to the reimbursement of travel and subsistence expenses incurred by part-time members of Research Councils and the University Grants Committee. I am pleased to inform the noble Lord that a solution to this taxation problem has now been approved by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, I would thank the noble Earl for his Answer. May I ask him whether it means that members of these Committees who come from some distance will be put at no disadvantage compared with those who come from the London region? As I think the noble Earl is fully aware, at the present time under this new ruling those travelling from Edinburgh, say, would be paying out more in income tax than they would be receiving as an honorarium. From his Answer, I hope I am correct in assuming that this will not obtain in the future. But can he assure us that there will be no disadvantage to those coming from a distance?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I can give the noble Lord that assurance. That is indeed the purpose of the solution which my right honourable friend has approved. In answer to the noble Lord's second supplementary question about Edinburgh, I think the precise mathematical result would depend upon the income of the traveller concerned.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, while being really relieved that it will not actually cost people money who partake in these discussions, would the noble Earl make arrangements to publish the exact details? Is it not possible for these matters to be completely isolated from people's individual incomes, since most of them are serving in the public interest without any remuneration in the real sense at all?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I shall certainly be glad to consider that question. I think it would be difficult to publish details about all the individuals concerned, but certainly if there is anything I can do in that way I will arrange for it to be done.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, as the noble Earl says that a solution has been arrived at, could he tell us what the solution is?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I shall be glad to. I had not been asked that question. The solution is complicated and I shall therefore put my nose down in my brief and read it out. It is as follows. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told me ("me" means myself) that from the taxation point of view there is no objection to Departments paying the holders of part-time appointments the full amount of their travelling and subsistence expenses and then accounting to the Inland Revenue for the relevant tax by reference to the P.A.Y.E. coding issue.

LORD PLATT

My Lords, does this mean that in future members of these Councils and Committees will get their full hotel expenses and subsistence expenses? Because this has never been the case in the past. Owing to the very high cost of hotels, the subsistence allowances never used to reimburse us the full amount. It always cost us money to belong to one of these Committees.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am not absolutely certain that the noble Lord, Lord Platt, is bowling me a completely straight ball; I think there may be an element of googly about it. Therefore I should like to consider his question rather carefully and write to him, if necessary circulating my reply.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, since my noble friend Lady Wootton asked the same question as I did, but in more intelligible language, and since the noble Earl has still failed to explain how this system will work out, will he consider making a statement—not just writing to individual Peers—possibly giving examples of how it will work? I suspect that people may still get little benefit from these expenses and may be worse off as a result.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, again I shall certainly be glad to consider the noble Lord's suggestion. It is my understanding that while this solution is not designed to give a benefit over the system obtaining hitherto, it will mean, as I understand it, that there will be no question at all of people being worse off.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, did I hear the noble Earl aright? Did he say in his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton, that tax would be levied on travelling expenses? If so, is not this rather an odd principle?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, perhaps I may put it another way. The suggestion is that the solution is for the employing Department to pay a grossed-up sum of such an amount as would leave the full amount of travelling and subsistence expenses in the recipient's hands after deduction of tax.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, presumably the noble Earl can assure us that there would be no payment into a blocked account in the Cayman Islands.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, as the remuneration appears to be very small, am I to understand that there are a large number of women on these Committees?