SOUTH AFRICA: WAGE RATES AND BRITISH INVESTMENT (Hansard, 22 March 1973)

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)
No, my Lords; but we will continue to urge British companies with subsidiaries or associates in South Africa 861 to examine urgently the pay and conditions of their non-European workers and to make any improvements which may be necessary.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, I welcome that reply. May I ask Her Majesty's Government to consider two proposals which I hope are constructive? Would Her Majesty's Government consider a British initiative to establish an international convention, supplementing the I.L.O. Conventions, to control conditions of financial investment in South Africa and developing countries which would require acceptable wages, conditions, and trade union rights; secondly, whether the Government would prohibit investment from this country abroad which would deny those rights?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, so far as an international convention to control investment is concerned, I do not think this would be in the interests of those concerned. This is also partly applicable to the second question, which was whether Her Majesty's Government would prohibit investment. I understand that opinion is divided in South Africa about this. No doubt the noble Lord, if he reads the Daily Telegraph, will have observed to-day that Chief Buthelezi has said that to withdraw British capital from South Africa would be a sterile exercise, and that every job is vital.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that not only Her Majesty's Government but also the people of this country generally were much concerned at the reports, and that perhaps one of the quickest ways of changing this situation would be for confirmation as to which companies have been indulging in this practice and which companies in the meantime have improved the situation, so that the investors would know which of the companies they have invested in had not put their house in order?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I think I would agree with the noble Lord. I am sure that the publicity and the pressure of shareholders on the boards of companies is much the most successful way of achieving any change.

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that statistics show that the wages paid to African employees in South Africa are far greater than those paid to African employees in the African Republics? Further, would not she agree that there is no official world recognition of malnutrition; that it depends entirely on the climatic conditions, the vegetation grown and other such matters?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I think my noble friend is also correct, because, for example, the situation varies greatly between the rural and urban areas. But I hope that this publicity will make those companies which do not pay the minimum wages necessary seek to put their houses in order.

§ LORD AVEBURY
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say what she means by "improvements which may be necessary?" Does this mean that she would recommend British companies with subsidiaries in South Africa at least to bring the wages up to what is known as the poverty datum line? Could not the Government reinforce the advice they have given to this effect by refusing to award contracts to parent companies in this country of any subsidiaries which have failed to honour that commitment?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, the Department of Trade and Industry last August issued a leaflet which sought to show British business operating in South Africa that it is not necessary to pay only the minimum wage; that apart from that, it was also possible to give many fringe benefits of one kind and another. We hope that a great deal of attention will be paid to what is said in this House. There is a certain difficulty in that, although there are many British South African subsidiaries which are under direct control from their British head offices, there are others which are locally controlled.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, reverting to the original Question, and while expressing sympathy with the human motive of the Question, I should like to ask my noble friend whether it would not be placing an unacceptable burden on British Government agencies to ask them 863 to police the internal affairs of other countries for which we have no responsibility—places such as Brazil, where there is considerable British capital, or a country like the Soviet Empire of Russia, whose oppressed satellites experience the need to object to below subsistence wages, as shown by the riots in Danzig and elsewhere last year?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I hope I have not implied that the British Government are trying to police everything. I think I can do no better than quote from the Prime Minister's recent letter which was made public, in which he said: I would hope that British companies in South Africa would recognise their own interest in establishing a name as good employers, in particular by keeping abreast of the best current practice in respect of pay and conditions of employment and opportunity of advancement.

§ LORD KENNET
My Lords, would the noble Baroness, whose answers I think are giving a good deal of satisfaction to the great majority of the Members of your Lordships' House, share my view that the Guardian newspaper is to be complimented for having blown this one open?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I will compliment the Guardian newspaper; but I would also say that many of these disparities were known before, which is why the Department of Trade and Industry took the initiative last summer.

§ LORD GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, could I just ask your Lordships to realise that the British companies operating in South Africa—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Order, order!

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)
My Lords, perhaps I should intervene. I think there would be no objection if the noble Lord addressed his question to my noble friend.

§ LORD GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she realises that a number of very distinguished British companies operating in South Africa are raising the standards, not only of the Bantu but also of the Coloureds and the Asians, far higher than they would otherwise have been raised?
864 Would the Minister also bear in mind that a number of those companies do not observe the job reservation law of the South African Nationalist Government and that this raises problems for them? May I further ask the Minister to bear in mind that Chief Buthelezi would wish these companies not to go out? Finally, would the Minister say to Mr. Alistair Hetherington, the Editor of the Guardian, that he has done no service to anybody by the articles he has written?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, on the last question put by the noble Lord my reply is, No. On his first question—and I am glad he has given me this chance to mention it—of course there are some British companies which are well ahead of normal practice in what they give those who work for them. However, I would also say that it is worth recalling in public what the Department of Trade and Industry's leaflet said, which was to the effect that the idea that South African legislation effectively prevents employers from improving the wages or conditions of service of non-white employees is mistaken. Employers have a great deal of flexibility, and I hope that will be used to the best advantage.

§ LORD SEGAL
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the conditions of work in many of the South African mines are little short of appalling and that this question of danger to life and limb deserves at least as high a priority as improvements in wages?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, we have always said consistently that we are thoroughly against the practice of apartheid, but I think the noble Lord was really referring to safety practices in industry, which is a very important point.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)
My Lords, I have observed frequently in your Lordships' House that in general your Lordships feel that Question Time should be rather restricted, but when it comes to the particular then your Lordships' practice is sometimes more variable. I should like to suggest that it is now time to move on to the next Question, and in doing so I apologise sincerely to the noble Lord, Lord Nunburnholme.