HL Deb 19 March 1973 vol 340 cc523-4

2.40 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent the withdrawal of troops from the European Zone to serve in Ulster has led to a reduction in civilians serving the Army in that area.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, units go to Ulster on temporary detached duty for periods of four months at a time, leaving their families behind throughout B.A.O.R. Such requirements as children's education, family medical and welfare facilities, the upkeep of barracks and use of training facilities are unaffected by temporary unit moves. At such times, civilian staff are also required to perform tasks normally undertaken by soldiers; for example, security, administrative and maintenance duties, and in these circumstances it is not possible to reduce the numbers of civilians employed when units are temporarily detached.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, am I correct in thinking that the Minister is suggesting that there can be no reductions at all? Is he aware that I am not expecting that vast sums will be saved; nevertheless, is it not desirable that some foreign exchange should be saved by some reductions? Will the noble Lord now look into the matter—if I may use the modern jargon—in depth, so that we can be satisfied that there is no waste and that every farthing that can be saved will not be spent?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, of course I give the noble Lord an undertaking that I will do that—and, indeed, we are doing it constantly. What I was saying, in answer to the Question, was that I could not save any men as a result of what is happening in Ulster. But, in point of fact, if the noble Lord will recollect the Defence debate, I said to him that there are 4,500 more men in Germany than there were two or three years ago and we have actually saved 200 civilians.

LORD SHINWELL

That may be so, my Lords. But is the Minister aware—he must be aware, because he produced these figures in the recent White Paper on Defence—that there are beween 30,000 and 35,000 civilians serving the Army in the European zone? That appears to be a very formidable number and it ought in some way to be reduced.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, it is really a question of whether or not this is extravagant. I think the House must realise that one cannot have it both ways. One cannot "civilianise" and do military jobs with civilians, and at the same time complain that there are too many civilians.