§ 3.17 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what percentage of the present outbreak of swine vesicular disease is attributable to swill; and whether they will in future publish separate figures showing the proportion so attributable.
1285EARL FERRERSMy Lords, there have so far been 15 cases where swill has been implicated in the introduction and spread of the disease. Seven of these outbreaks were primary cases where imported pig meat was found in the swill. The remaining eight were most probably caused by the re-cycling of disease resulting from infected pigs being sent for slaughter before the disease was discovered. The total number of outbreaks is 72 and swill has therefore been a source of infection in approximately 20 per cent. of cases. Although this is a serious matter, I do not think this particular source of spread warrants the publication of separate statistics.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his reply, and apologising to the House for "grunting" on in this subject, may I ask whether the Minister is aware of the statement by Mr. Alec Brown, chief veterinary officer of the Ministry of Agriculture, on February 27 of this year on the B.B.C. programme "Farming Today", when he said:
It is not a question of steaming it quietly"—he was referring to swill—for an hour; it has got to be boiled pretty vigorously for an hour before it is sent to pigs, and care taken that no bits and pieces of uncooked food land around the swill feeding area where stock can have access to it".What can the Government do to tighten up the inspection and control of this source of infection?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, what my noble friend says is perfectly true; if the swill is properly boiled there should be no contamination. I would remind my noble friend that it is up to the local authorities to enforce these regulations, and they have been given specific powers to do so under the Diseases of Animals Act 1950. My right honourable friend has drawn the attention of the local authorities to these requirements and has requested that they use all the resources they can to ensure that the pig swill is boiled properly.
§ LORD HOYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl why he rejects the idea of the specific notification of this disease, in view of the fact that in his Answer he admits that at least 20 per cent. of the cases have been caused by the non 1286 boiling of pig swill? That leaves the other 80 per cent. which entails many more cases. Would it not be helpful if this particular category was notified separately from the others?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the statistics on prosecutions are kept by the Home Office and they tell me that prosecutions under the Waste Foods Order are not shown separately. However, the Ministry of Agriculture have these statistics and I am only too willing to give them to the noble Lord, and to any other Member of the House, should they require them.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the total number of 72 outbreaks and movement regulations all over the country are threatening the pig production of this country in a serious way and therefore an important part of our food supply? Is my noble friend satisfied that the present regulations, not only with regard to the handling and the boiling of swill but also with regard to the control of the movement of pigs (which in many cases is very irregular), are strong enough to deal with what is now a very serious outbreak?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I entirely accept my noble friend's point and can assure him that my right honourable friend is very concerned at the matters which my noble friend has mentioned, with regard to both the Waste Foods Order and the transport of animals. The present Waste Foods Order has some practical defects in administration and enforcement and a revised Waste Foods Order is in preparation with a view to remedying these defects. I can assure my noble friend that my right honourable friend is extremely concerned and if there is any cause for tightening up the existing regulations I have no doubt that he will do so.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is cause? I believe that noble Lords on all sides will join with me in feeling that there is cause for a further tightening up of the regulations. Will my noble friend make representations to his right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture asking him to tighten up the regulations now, so that they are more effective?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I shall certainly bring to the attention of my right honourable friend what my noble friend has said. But I should remind him that if the regulations which are at present in force are adequately and properly policed then much of the problem would not have occurred. This is at the moment the responsibility of local authorities, and of course local authorities differ in the strength of the attention which they give to this particular matter.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, with the advent of a new Waste Foods Order would the Minister's right honourable friend be prepared to suggest that it would not be the local authorities but would be central Government that were responsible for policing it? Secondly, as to the remaining 80 per cent. of the outbreaks of this disease, does the Minister know how these were transmitted and can he say that they were definitely not caused through failure of boiling swill or swill transmission?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I shall certainly draw to the attention of my right honourable friend my noble friend's suggestion that this should be policed by the Ministry of Agriculture and not by the local authorities. But I should remind him that this requirement is a requirement under the Diseases of Animals Act 1950 and this would mean fairly major changes of legislation and changes of practice which, although maybe desirable, have their own problems. I shall certainly draw his point to the attention of my right honourable friend. He asked me what were the other sources of infection. In the movement of pigs from infected premises throughout markets there were 12 cases; there were five cases of direct movements of pigs from infected premises; there were 11 cases which resulted from market contacts; there were 18 cases where the movement of pigs in contaminated lorries was the cause; there were two cases where contact was with infected pigs on lorries; there was one case of a local spread; there were two cases of recrudescence; and six cases are still under investigation. That is over and above the 15 cases which were due to unboiled swill.
LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, may I ask the Government what 1288 penalties are inflicted on farmers who do not boil their swill? May I ask also that the Government tighten up the disinfecting of lorries taking pigs and other animals to market?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, under the Diseases of Animals Act the maximum fine is £400. In fact, that is mostly a nominal figure which people have been fined. I can tell the noble Lord that between 1968 and 1972 there have been three cases where the fine has been £5; five cases of £10; one case of £15; four cases of £20; four cases of £25; one case of £30; and one case of £110.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, would the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, give an undertaking to the House that he will write in answer to the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, because he did not, I think, answer the second part of the noble Earl's second supplementary question, which is extremely important.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, there have been a number of supplementary questions and I cannot remember what the second supplementary question of my noble friend was. If the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, would remind me, then I shall try to reply to it now.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, as I understand it the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, asked whether those cases of the disease definitely not caused through swill could be totally distinguished from those cases where it definitely was proved to be caused by swill? And he asked the Minister if he would say whether the Minister was totally certain that the remaining 80 per cent. of cases could not have been in any instances caused through swill?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, possibly the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, was not listening with his usual attention because I did give a fairly comprehensive list of all the sources of infection which have been discovered in this case. I would remind the noble Lord and the House that, although these are figures which have been ascertained, it is impossible to say with utter conviction that these are the causes. But it is anticipated, as a result of work and research that has been put in, that this is the likely outcome.