RHODESIA (Hansard, 29 June 1973)

§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
No, my Lords, as my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said in another place, Sir Denis Greenhill and two officials recently visited Rhodesia to assess the sitaution, and to keep contact with all shades of Rhodesian opinion. No new proposals or negotiations were involved We are ready to help towards an honourable settlement, but there must first be a measure of agreement between Africans and Europeans.

§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE
My Lords, whilst thanking the noble Lady for that reply, I would ask whether she can reassure the House 2186 on one point. If, as reported in the Telegraph two or three times, the Smith régime is contemplating a unilateral acceptance of the 1971 proposals, with a view to getting some kind of recognition and the removal of sanctions, can she assure the House that the British Government would repudiate such a move?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, we have no accounts ourselves from these visits of a unilateral implementation of the 1971 proposals. I understand that Mr. Smith is to make a statement in Parliament some time to-day.

§ LORD SEGAL
My Lords, can the noble Lady inform the House—and this is obviously a matter of interest—whether the initiative for the visit of Sir Denis Greenhill came from Rhodesia or from this country?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, it came from this country.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, is the Minister aware that surprise has been felt that a Question should have been asked on this matter to-day, in view of the statement by the Foreign Secretary that a Statement would be forthcoming next week. Can the noble Lady say if there is to be a Statement, and if she feels able, in that case, to see that more information is included than that which is so meagre and varied as to the last mission, since it included a visit to Umtali, which took four hours by automobile, there and back, and so left very little time for other people? Also would the noble Lady consider whether that Statement could include some information about whether a conference between the A.N.C. and the two African settlement groups has yet been held in order to make African opinion more clear? Secondly, would the noble Lady consider whether the Statement could comment upon the allegations which have been made that the case of the Bishop Muzorewa is that the minimum terms are parity forthwith.

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, it is quite right, I think, that there should be a Question in this House to-day, because although a Statement was made in 2187 another place it did not give an opportunity to noble Lords to put Questions; and, apart from that, I believe that we suffer from not having any Hansard. However, so far as a Statement next week is concerned, I am afraid that my noble friend is incorrect.
My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said in another place: I should like to return in July before we rise and perhaps give an account of my latest thinking on the matter. I believe that the best chance, the best climate, for the settlement is created by maintaining the status quo. The mission met Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Ian Smith and many leaders of African opinion.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, because of the absence of Hansard, she was in an advantageous position to know exactly what the Foreign Secretary said; but the Press reports varied greatly, and they were not entirely in accordance with that?

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend if she is aware that one day sanctions will have to disappear, probably unconditionally, and that the desire of a great many people in Britain to help the black people in Rhodesia would be best met if sanctions were abolished immediately?—because their unemployment, their food and even their political advancement, is now being made worse by sanctions.

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, one can, of course, look at it both ways: one would have thought that the pressure of sanctions would be an encouragement to come to an honourable, reasonable and just settlement, which is what my right honourable friend is trying to achieve.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the necessity for European-African accord in Rhodesia. Would Her Majesty's Government encourage the proposal of a Constitutional Conference on Rhodesia at which both Africans and Europeans would be represented?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, we do not think that a Constitutional Conference at this moment would be a success, because 2188 Mr. Smith and his Government are not prepared to join such a conference. My right honourable friend has always said that he hopes that Africans will meet Mr. Smith and his colleagues to try to achieve a measure of agreement. If they do, we are always ready to help at the right time.

§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE
My Lords, whilst entirely agreeing with the importance of the conversations between the A.N.C. and Mr. Smith, for which they have frequently asked, but which have been refused by Mr. Smith, would the noble Baroness think about another matter? We quite approve of the interchange of officials and so on, but could the noble Baroness use her good offices to ensure that the Rhodesian Government could give Bishop Muzorewa his passport back, so that he could come to this country to discuss with the Government and with other people here?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, we urged on the Rhodesian Government that he should be allowed to come for a medical check-up in this country, but at the moment, as we have had these recent contacts, we do not think that a visit would be necessary.

§ LORD SEGAL
My Lords, would the noble Baroness answer another question in this context and inform the House whether the frontier with Zambia still remains closed, and what efforts have been made to reopen it?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, the House will recall that it was Mr. Smith who first closed the frontier. He then reopened it, but at the present time it is the Zambian Government who have closed their side of the frontier, and no progress is being made.

§ LORD COLERAINE
My Lords, in reply to an earlier question, my noble friend said that she understood that Mr. Ian Smith was making a statement to-day in Salisbury. Is she aware that he has already made that statement and that it is on the tape, and that he has said that so long as Her Majesty's Government maintain the fiction that they, Her Majesty's Government, are the Government of Rhodesia, for so long will it be 2189 impossible to persuade the Africans that it is in their interest to come to a settlement? Does she not think that there is something to be said for that argument?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, my noble friend has the advantage of me. I should have gone to see the tape before I entered the Chamber. I was not aware of that fact. If that is a correct report, I would say only that Her Majesty's Government still feel that we have a responsibility for Rhodesia, to get as just a settlement as we can for all races within Rhodesia. It is for the purpose of trying to achieve that—although we have little influence on the ground—that we use what influence we can.

§ LORD COLERAINE
My Lords, is it not the case that Her Majesty's Government, of whatever complexion, have been following that policy for eight years? It has proved to be a complete and utter failure. How long do Her Majesty's Government expect to follow that policy—for another eight years?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend would really expect me to forecast such a time scale. I would say only that my right honourable friend, the Foreign Secretary, assumed responsibility for this matter only in 1970. In 1971 new proposals were put forward, which were found to be unacceptable by the African population in Rhodesia. Therefore much has happened since 1970, and I would suggest to my noble friend that he should look at the matter in the context of an African time scale rather than a European time scale.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, while the noble Baroness quite rightly says that her right honourable friend resumed responsibility only in 1970, would she not confirm that the basis for independence for Rhodesia was, in fact, laid down by the Conservative Government that went out of office in 1964; that it was a basis agreed upon by the three major political Parties in this country, and that the seizure of power in Rhodesia by the illegal régime cannot be put right other than by this Parliament in granting a true independence to Rhodesia and the people of Rhodesia?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, it is quite true that many negotiations have gone on, but my right honourable friend is particularly interested in those for which this Government is responsible now in this Parliament. That is why I replied in those terms.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, arising out of the reply to the noble Lord, Lord Olivier, may I ask the Minister whether she can say what portion of the £1 million sterling subvention given by the United Kingdom to Zambia on the closing of the railway is now being given, in effect, as a subsidy to the Benguela railway?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I could not say exactly what proportion of the £1 million was being spent by Zambia in which direction; that is her responsibility. But it was given to Zambia to try to help her overcome some of the transport difficulties which came originally from the closure of the border by Mr. Smith. The fact that the Zambian Government have not reopened their border should also be taken into account, because it is understandable that they do not wish to be entirely dependent on a situation where the border can suddenly be closed.

§ LORD SEGAL
My Lords, could not the British Government use their good offices to try to get the frontier with Zambia reopened, in the interests of everyone concerned?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I think any question of this kind depends very much on timing and on the feeling within the country concerned. It would clearly be of great benefit to have the border reopened. But if the Zambian Government feel that they do not wish to do so, there is little that we can do about it. She is, after all, an independent State.

§ LORD COLERAINE
My Lords, may I ask just one further question, and then I will really shut up? The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said, with perfect justice, that Her Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, when he occupied another capacity, laid down certain principles eight or nine years ago. Is not the moral that we should draw from that the extreme folly of taking rigid lines 2191 which bind us in a future that we cannot possibly foresee?

§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE
My Lords, I do not know that the Five Principles are rigid lines. I think they have been generally accepted by Parliament and I think we should pursue them.