§ 3.22 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements have been made for joint manœuvres by the British and South African naval forces.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, Her Majesty's ships calling at South African ports for rest and replenishment normally carry out routine exercises with South African maritime forces where this can conveniently be arranged. H.M.S. "Tiger" and H.M.S. "Dreadnought" with the frigate H.M.S. "Rhyl" and Royal Fleet auxiliaries will be engaging in exercises with South African maritime forces off the Cape when this squadron returns from its Far East deployment in late November this year. Such exercises are a regular feature of the co-operation which exists between the Royal Navy and the South African Navy under the Simonstown Agreement for the defence of the Cape sea routes.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him, first, whether he is aware that joint action with a State practising apartheid is repugnant to many in this country and, I believe, to Her Majesty's Government?
1986 May I ask him, secondly, and more seriously, have we not reached a time, in view of the atmosphere of détente in the world, when Her Majesty's Government should consider raising on an international scale the whole issue of naval forces operating in distant seas? Cannot Her Majesty's Government support India and all the South-East Asian nations which demand the neutralisation of the Indian Ocean?
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not obvious that the well-being of all the black people in Southern Africa—perhaps in the whole of Africa—and their defence against subversion or, in the event of emergency, against war, depends upon our co-operation with the only powerful country in Southern Africa, namely South Africa?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think these are two well known points of view which have been expressed in your Lordships' House on previous occasions, and no doubt will be expressed again. The exercises which have been going on for some considerable time under both Governments are in accordance with the Simonstown Agreement and relate to the defence of the sea routes, and they in no way represent support by Her Majesty's Government for the internal policies of South Africa. This has been made clear on a number of occasions.
With regard to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway's, second question, the importance, as I see it at any rate and as Her Majesty's Government see it, to this country of the Simonstown Agreement is such that the time has not yet come when we can join in a suggestion such as the noble Lord has made.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I just press that matter with a further question; namely, do Her Majesty's Government now realise that we are in a new world situation of great hope and detente, and cannot Her Majesty's Government begin to take the initiative for peace in the world by proposing that there should be some action about the limitation of naval forces, which would apply not only to the right of the Royal Navy to be in the Indian Ocean but also to the American navy in the Mediterranean?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think in a way we are really back to the last Question but one, when we discussed whether or not we should progress too quickly without having some regard to the likely consequences for the safety and security of this country. I myself would have thought at the present time there was quite enough going on, with the M.B.F.R. conference, the C.S.C.E. conference and SALT, and I think we had better really see how we get on there before we do anything else.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, while sympathising with the attitude of my noble friend Lord Brockway, may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that one of the most significant developments in the New World to which he has referred has been the extraordinary expansion of the Russian navy as it has moved out of home waters into all the oceans of the world?
§ LORD CARRINGTONYes, indeed, my Lords; and this is one of the factors which one has to consider when dealing with a proposition such as the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has put forward.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any alternative exists to the use of the Simonstown Naval Base along the whole route between Britain and the Far East, and whether the use of this base is likely to increase or diminish in the future?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, the base has recently been used a great deal more than it would otherwise have been, as a result of the closure of the Suez Canal, and the Beira patrol, of course, has made it much more important from our point of view. Therefore I think it would be unlikely that we should find anywhere—if there was anywhere—so convenient as Simonstown.