§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as folows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the outcome of the recent deputation to the Prime Minister from the Staff Side of the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council on the salary scales of the new nursing posts in the reorganised National Health Service.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, My right honourable friend, the Prime Minister listened with interest to the views of the Staff Side about the salaries promulgated by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, for chief nursing administrators in the reorganised National Health Service and he promised to consider, with the Secretary of State, the points which they had put forward.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, but we can hardly be expected to be fully satisfied with its form or content. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the unilateral decision of the Secretary of State on the new salary scales for senior nursing posts in the reorganised Health Service rather than negotiating them through the normal Whitley machinery has aroused great resentment and anger and a sense of injustice among senior nursing staffs throughout the country? Would he agree that this is 1702 particularly unfortunate at this moment when we want to sustain the maximum good will to ensure a smooth transition to the new Service? Also would he agree that through public debates, in Parliament and outside, on the form of the reorganisation of the Service great stress has been laid on the concept of team work? How does he reconcile this with the fact that at all levels the top of the new salary scale decided by the Secretary of State for senior nursing posts does not even reach the bottom of the salary scale he has also decided for administrative and Treasury or finance officers?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the Secretary of State is well aware of the views which have been expressed by a number of senior nursing staff on the subject of the salaries. It was not a question of the Secretary of State seeking to set aside the Whitley machinery. He acted as he did only because of the dictates of the timetable for reorganisation and after he had personally seen the Staff Side and found out from them what their exact views were, and explained the position. So far as relativities are concerned, this is a difficult question. The relativity of the senior nursing officers has been improved on what it is at present when taken with that of the administrators under the new salaries. There is no question that in their functions as team members nursing officers will be equal in status with the other members of the team.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, has not the time come when nursing salaries should be taken from the Whitley machinery, which is not very appropriate, and determined by some kind of committee or body such as determined the set of salaries for members of the medical profession?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord has said. I think this is a matter which should be discussed with the Staff Side of the nursing profession. So far as reviews are concerned, all the salaries will be reviewed in 1975.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, as the Secretary of State has now found it necessary to over-rule the Whitley machinery, will my noble friend reconsider his rather hostile answer to a plea which I made about a year ago for a proper review of the whole of the Whitley machinery?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the Whitley machinery is under review in connection with the reorganisation.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, can the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, indicate how long it will be before the outcome of the consideration that he has indicated is being given to what was said to the Prime Minister will be made known, particularly in view of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Reigate? As the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, well knows, the Whitley machinery can be extremely cumbersome and the proceedings very lengthy, and I am sure that he will agree that there is urgency in this matter.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, the assurance that we realise the urgency of the matter, and the matter is being considered by the Prime Minister.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, can the Minister tell us what is the difference between the salaries now being offered to senior nursing officers and those which are taken—I will not say "enjoyed"—by the matrons of the senior and larger hospitals in this country?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I can give my noble friend one figure. The salaries for the new senior nursing posts will be increased, as against present salaries, by up to £1,700 per annum, or some 35 per cent., which, as I said, is a larger increase than for the adminstrators at the top of their scale.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is the Minister aware that to-day minor executive officials in this country get £2,000 a year? Is he aware that these miserable figures which the Government are thinking about are entirely inadequate; and that if the nurses, who have been very patient, are deceived this time and let down they will begin to feel that they should imitate other workers and go on strike? Will the noble Lord bear in mind that this is a very important matter and that if he does nothing to improve matters it will simply perpetuate the present grave shortage of nurses in this country?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I certainly would not underrate the importance of nurses. But of course these salaries have to be carefully considered in the light of the Pay Code and this states that the rate for new work should not be more than the current rate for the same or most nearly similar work for the same or other employer.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, is it not a fact that the Pay Code gives considerable latitude for salaries when the posts are regraded, and that the posts under this reorganisation are infinitely more important than anything that the medical service can offer at county level? It is a new service that we are putting into nursing.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I have just explained the bearing of the Pay Code on new posts. That is the reason why the top salaries are up by some 35 per cent.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, can the Minister state whether the trade unions of the Civil Service made any representations to the Lord President of the Council who is responsible for the Civil Service? Secondly, is he aware that for some time it has been well known in both House of Parliament that the Whitley machinery is absolutely obsolete and ought to be looked at again, and new conciliation machinery introduced in its place?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is responsible for the Civil Service and that is why the Staff Side of the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council went to see him. That is what led to the Question.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, before we leave this matter, could the Minister enlarge a little on a remark he made a moment ago in reply to one of my supplementary questions, when he said that the members of the team will be equal in status but not in pay? Would he not agree that of all the services provided by the team, whether it be at area, district or, for that matter, even regional level, the nursing service is the one which is most vital to the patient; and the responsibility that the senior nursing officers will carry in terms 1705 of control of nursing service, the education and training of nurses both pre-and also post-professional, and for welfare and general development, will be absolutely vital to the Service in the future, and that senior nursing staff should be paid having regard to those responsibilities?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the team will be made up of members of different professions including doctors and administrators, and probably they will be on different salary scales. I repeat that I would never underrate the contribution made by the nurses, and all these matters will be taken into account when the review is conducted in 1975.